Help identifying a gold pocket watch

[joe2024]

Thanks for the add. I am not a watch collector. I metal detect. This year I dug an 18k Gold pocket watch. I have not had much luck identifying it. There is no serial number on the movement. The movement is stamped with the same information stamped on the inner cover. I have not tried to open the face yet, so not sure of the condition.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[MrRoundel]

Nice find! Considering it may have been buried for a very long time, it's in pretty good shape. At least the gold is. It looks like there is some sort of maker name engraved on the center bridge. To me it looks like it's made in the style of a Jules Jurgensen movement, but it could be any number of Swiss makers from the late nineteenth, perhaps early twentieth century. The movement has what we call wolf-tooth winding wheels, meaning the teeth on the wheels have a bit of curve to them. I believe it provided a smoother winding feel. Amazingly, it looks like it has some salvageable parts on it. There's not much value for a movement in that condition, so the case is the best part of your find. But I'm sure you know that.

What condition is the dial in?

Congrat's on a successful hunt.

 

[astonvilla]

It was made by " Tissot "

 

[MrRoundel]

It was made by " Tissot "

astonvilla , I'm curious as to what tipped you off. Is it that little "offshoot" of a 4th wheel bridge? Or? Thanks. Cheers.

 

[astonvilla]

I owned a Tissot movement some years ago which was identical to this one . To my knowledge only Tissot used this calibre .

An 18 karat gold and enamel Tissot pocket watch with - Nov 20, 2021 | Schmitt Horan & Co. in NH

C. F. Tissot & Son, Locle, a keyless gold and enamel pocket watch, 15 jewels, stem wind and pin set cotes de Geneve d... on Nov 20, 2021

www.liveauctioneers.com

H Sandstrom

 

[MrRoundel]

astonvilla , Thanks. Looks like a winner to me. Cheers.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Jacob H Colclazer (also Colclazier) is the Indianapolis jewelry firm for which it is inscribed. He was the son of Jacob Colclazer, a famous circuit-riding Methodist preacher of the 1830s-1850s—the “sermon on the mount!” JH was already a watchmaker at 20 E Washington in 1862. After serving in the 79th Infantry Regiment in the Civil War, he resumed as a jeweler, winning categories for gold and silver wares at the Indiana state fair through the 1870s. His address was then 12 E Washington.

If Tissot, this watch was made in 1875-78, which I think could fit the piece & the retailer. Kudos astonvilla for the likely ID, and I hope it’s made certain if the movement signature is legible.

Of note, Colclazer defaulted on a $3,500 promissory note to Courvoisier, Wilcox & Co (famous Swiss watch importers), which he had made in March 1876. It appears that put him out of business by 1877. That may indicate his source for this watch—and perhaps when it was sourced. Weren’t they the Tissot importers at that time?

Some mentions from 1874-1876

 

[mosesgodfrey]

I’m also amazed at the case condition: the pins have gone, but the hinges are intact & could be repaired. Remarkable find!!

 

[MrRoundel]

My WAG is that years ago the watch was stolen. Soon after, when the authorities were closing in on the perp, he ditched it in a field. Years later, while in jail for another thievery, he lost what was left of his mind, and forgot where he'd hidden it. Later, and on a website that the scoundrel frequented as a purported semi-expert in watches, he pretended to think it was a Jules Jurgensen, when he knew all along it was a Tissot.

 

[joe2024]

Nice find! Considering it may have been buried for a very long time, it's in pretty good shape. At least the gold is. It looks like there is some sort of maker name engraved on the center bridge. To me it looks like it's made in the style of a Jules Jurgensen movement, but it could be any number of Swiss makers from the late nineteenth, perhaps early twentieth century. The movement has what we call wolf-tooth winding wheels, meaning the teeth on the wheels have a bit of curve to them. I believe it provided a smoother winding feel. Amazingly, it looks like it has some salvageable parts on it. There's not much value for a movement in that condition, so the case is the best part of your find. But I'm sure you know that.

What condition is the dial in?

Congrat's on a successful hunt.

I have not tried to open the face side yet. Jules Jurgensen was the closest thing I have found. Thanks.

 

[joe2024]

It was made by " Tissot "

I think you have it. Just looked up some of Tissot movements and there are some that look just like this one. Thanks. What would be the chances of purchasing a working movement that would fit this case?

 

[joe2024]

Jacob H Colclazer (also Colclazier) is the Indianapolis jewelry firm for which it is inscribed. He was the son of Jacob Colclazer, a famous circuit-riding Methodist preacher of the 1830s-1850s—the “sermon on the mount!” JH was already a watchmaker at 20 E Washington in 1862. After serving in the 79th Infantry Regiment in the Civil War, he resumed as a jeweler, winning categories for gold and silver wares at the Indiana state fair through the 1870s. His address was then 12 E Washington.

If Tissot, this watch was made in 1875-78, which I think could fit the piece & the retailer. Kudos astonvilla for the likely ID, and I hope it’s made certain if the movement signature is legible.

Of note, Colclazer defaulted on a $3,500 promissory note to Courvoisier, Wilcox & Co (famous Swiss watch importers), which he had made in March 1876. It appears that put him out of business by 1877. That may indicate his source for this watch—and perhaps when it was sourced. Weren’t they the Tissot importers at that time?

Some mentions from 1874-1876

View attachment 736864 View attachment 736865

Yes, the movement signature is the same as the inner cover. Identical, just smaller.

 

[joe2024]

Who would be a good person to take on such a job? I would love to restore it to working condition.

 

[MrRoundel]

I have not tried to open the face side yet. Jules Jurgensen was the closest thing I have found. Thanks.

That's probably a good call. It's a pretty good bet that the steel parts used to open/close the cover are in pretty bad shape. If you're lucky, they'll be in very bad shape so they'll be less likely to do damage to the lip on the cover. If pushing the crown down doesn't pop the cover fairly easily, it may be best for someone to drive out what's left of the pin at the base of it. Maybe that will release tension enough to remove the cover without damaging that soft 18K gold lip on the inside.

 

[joe2024]

The crown does not move. I tried to work a little wd-40 up into it and let it set for weeks but I'm pretty sure is is rusted to bad.

 

[joe2024]

Can it be taken apart from the back side and get it open?

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Tissot is a tedious brand to watch, at least for orphans. But an orphan will eventually turn up. They also used different signatures, which will tell their grade rank.

Another option is to look for another Locle movement orphan, once you know a diameter. Many similar styles are out there

 

[MrRoundel]

Does anybody else think that a little tap of the crown with a small nylon hammer, or wood block and small hammer, might free the cover? Too risky? It seems to me that it stands some chance of working, and with little risk of destruction. I could be wrong so OP should wait for opinions on such a thing before having at it. Even that crown is sweet, so easy as she goes, if she goes.

 

[Incroyable]

I owned a Tissot movement some years ago which was identical to this one . To my knowledge only Tissot used this calibre .

An 18 karat gold and enamel Tissot pocket watch with - Nov 20, 2021 | Schmitt Horan & Co. in NH

C. F. Tissot & Son, Locle, a keyless gold and enamel pocket watch, 15 jewels, stem wind and pin set cotes de Geneve d... on Nov 20, 2021

www.liveauctioneers.com

H Sandstrom

These old Tissots seem higher grade than the Tissot wristwatches I associate with the brand.

 

[joe2024]

Please, Opinions would be greatly appreciated. I would love to see what the face looks like.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

These old Tissots seem higher grade than the Tissot wristwatches I associate with the brand.

The Schmitt-Horan auction archive is available online. I think this is a better link to show this watch .

Lot Search - Schmitt Horan & Co.

Schmitt Horan & Co. Online Auctions & Online Bidding

bids.schmitthoran.com

 

[mosesgodfrey]

I’d also have a close look at the remaining hinge pin, as MrRoundel mentioned earlier. It was thin and likely of the same material that’s now already disintegrated on the other hinges.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

The Schmitt-Horan site does not display the actual watch page url so you need the lot number 257 to actually find it. I will ask Dan if that can be fixed.

 

[Incroyable]

Usually, if the watch is gold, the pin in the hinge is also gold. At least I was taught to replace them with gold,

Isn't gold too soft for a hinge pin?

 

[Dr. Jon]

There is more to this than just replacing the movement. It is doable amd not too expensive. The added problem is that the case has a spings and latch made of stell which is now gone. These also are available but have ot be the right size and strength.

Fortunatelygood movement are not expensive but a rest

 

[Dr. Jon]

I don't believe the crown lock will do anything. It's a rusted lump.
One possiblity is a knife blade into the lip from the crown to cut the latch.
Case pins are brass best to drill them out. That may be way to separate case parts.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

That’s what I was thinking: by the corrosion, the other 2 pins were copper/brass alloy. Looking at the ends & the corrosion there would tell you if the pin ends were exposed or covered. If it were my watch, this would be my diy check order:
1) does the gentlest fingernail pressure under the hinge center lift & free it? If any resistance, stop & move on
2) if pin ends not exposed, move on. If exposed, I’d make a gentle attempt to extract. Locate resilient wire of smaller diameter (small uncoated paper clip—you have the advantage of having the other case hinges for reference). Spray the hinge with liquid butane, which will chill the metal as it cleanly evaporates: the thermal coefficient of brass is significantly greater than 18k gold, so the pin remnants will shrink away from the inside of the hinge. One drop of liquid wrench on each hinge end & each joint, let sit 1+ hour. The pin may push out with gentle, straight pressure. If not, I might repeat the butane treatment & try once more, then move to the catch.

Fir the catch, I’d thought about a razor blade, since it’s thin & the catch is offset from the crown (at least in the auction example). But wasn’t sure if you could reach it directly (if there’s a notch vs a case lip)

 

[eri231]

The lock is located under the crown and the hinge at six o'clock. It cannot be otherwise.
Regards enrico

 

[gmorse]

Hi Jeffery,

Remember that 9 carat gold is only 37.5% actual gold, the rest can be various other metals, usually silver and copper, and if it's work-hardened it can be quite robust.

Regards,

Graham

 

[mosesgodfrey]

The lock is located under the crown and the hinge at six o'clock. It cannot be otherwise.
Regards enrico

The lock in the Tissot example from message 7 is offset at 12:20, not directly under the crown. This is what gives me hope the lock of the subject watch may be accessible.

 

[joe2024]

That is very close to this movement. The only difference I see is the gear directly below the crown has 4 screws. Mine has five.

 

[joe2024]

There is a little dark staining along the edge of the lid between 12:20 and 12:15

 

[joe2024]

Gently applying a little pressure under the hinge dose not move it at all. I thing a paper clip is going to be to big to try and push out the pin. Pretty sure this is a Ladies watch. Everything is nice and strait on the hinge though.

 

[joe2024]

Are any of you close to central Illinois? If not to far I could bring it to you for a look.

 

[MrRoundel]

roughbarked , I believe that the image you referenced is one of the back of the case, which he already has removed. The front cover looks to be hinged opposite the pendant.

I don't believe that we have seen a straight on image of the front cover. If this is correct, perhaps the OP can take that image and post?

I may be imagining things, but it seems that there was once an image of the front, and that it had a "T" initial in a shield. I don't see it now, so maybe it's my imagination. Regardless, I don't see a front cover shot now. Cheers.

 

[joe2024]

In that picture the back cover is still on. The release you are seeing is the back cover.

 

[joe2024]

Work has kept me busy. Back to the watch. With the help of a local watch repairman I have gotten it torn down this far. The screw to release the crown does not want to move. I'm thinking of giving it a good long soak in penetrating oil. Will the oil harm the gold?

Thanks in advance.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Joe,

I'm thinking of giving it a good long soak in penetrating oil. Will the oil harm the gold?

No, it should have no effect on gold or any of the other metals in the watch.

Regards,

Graham

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Curious—what worked to get the stuck cover loose? Congrats on progress!

 

[joe2024]

Curious—what worked to get the stuck cover loose? Congrats on progress!

The local watch repair guy slid a razor blade in at the latch point and tapped on it and it cam open. The metal latch was pretty much rusted away.

 

[John P.]

I think you have it. Just looked up some of Tissot movements and there are some that look just like this one. Thanks. What would be the chances of purchasing a working movement that would fit this case?

There are movements by Vacheron Constantin that look very much like this found movement.

 

[MrRoundel]

Have you brushed the center bridge surface with some sort of stiff bristle brush where it looks like somethings engraved? Never having dealt with that severity of corrosion, I don't know if that's a stupid question.

Did your watch repair guy give the movement a few taps near the case screw? I realize that stem may still be too much resistant structure. Then again, perhaps it's so rusted that it will break off easily. I'd tap that thing in a heartbeat if it was in anything other than an 18k case. That said, it's good you're being cautious, as the case is probably restorable by a good case guy. Of course you then have a challenge of finding a very similar movement.

Once you find out who made it, and what type of monetary value it might have, you'll have good info to decide on whether to take such steps. Since it's a ladies watch, it is more questionable. Best of luck with the rust-busting and screw/stem extraction.

Thanks for keeping the board members posted. Cheers.

 

[John P.]

This may be a Tissit, probably is. But it also links very much like a Vacheron

 

[joe2024]

The engraving on the movement is the exact same as on the inner cover. Still working on getting the movement out.

 

[joe2024]

On the first two pictures there are screw that go strait down into the ring. The heads was almost rusted off. I easily removed the heads tapping them with a small screw driver. The release had rust coming out, again tapping with a small screw driver I was able to remove it. The release looks like it is still in there. I have tapped the back and it will move forward about a centimeter. The hole on the back that I would think a release screw is in shows no sign of having a screw.

 

[joe2024]

A big thank you to member astonvilla. He found the same movement at a store in the UK. I just purchased it.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Congrats on finding a new movement!

I think that screw you point to held/holds the case spring. Something that will need to be replaced. But not something that prevents taking it apart.

Check for understanding: what I think I’m understanding is, you want to get the dial off the movement & movement out of the case. Forgive me if you already understand how to do that, but here goes. You could go in any order, but to preserve the dial I would attempt to remove it first.

You could wait to see how the dial anchors in the new movement. These pics are the brass dial feet & release screws. Two here that I can see, which is most common.



The screws have a notch, to release the dial. Both I can see look to be there and still be engaged (locked). Check for another foot&screw, just in case. Turn the screws so each foot is perfectly in its notch. That should allow the feet to come out/dial come off. May have to hold the case level, just off the bench, and VERY gently push alternately on the feet (I have used a wooden toothpick). Important here: if dial is still tight, there may be a 3rd foot&screw, or (rarer at this era) some movements may have one or more dial screws on the side/plate of the movement. Again, could see that on your new movement.

Removing the movement:

1) loosen the little screw on the movement closest the stem—until you can slide out the stem.

2) rotate the screws seen below that hold it in the case until the cutoff/missing part of the head is facing out toward the case. If dial is off, you can get penetrating oil on the threads first. Again, I see 2; check for others. Once done, movement will come out. These may be so far gone as to be useless/stuck, and others may have suggestions to extract without damaging the case (drill out??)

 

[joe2024]

I was finally able to get the movement out. The rust and corrosion was pretty bad. The stem sleeve came off trying to get the stem out. I already have my local watch guy lined up to reattach it. My next big hurdles are finding or getting made the works for opening the face. And cleaning the old copper out of the hinge tubes. First pic I have the two pieces backwards, they actually go together at the opposite ends. That should be the works for opening the face. I also need to find or get made a lid spring.

 

[joe2024]

I hope I am not violating site rules here. I have decided the case repair would be better off in a professionals hands. Dave's watch parts suggested William P. Fassler & Co in Florida. I have been in email conversations with William. He sounds like a good legit guy to do the work. Just looking for the groups thoughts on this.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I will not allow discussion of the abilities of various repair people
1) It is off topic
2) It can be very unfair
3) Even the best ones have "comebacks" I want us to do nothing to discourage repair of old watches

What I do and suggest for others is to use PM's to recommend repair people who aer likely to have a specific skill.