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Help identify wall clock.

Paddypup

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Hello. Brand new member but reading these threads for a year now and found some interesting information.
have any of you guys seen this on a wall clock before? Trying to identify it.
the movement only Has a 14 stamped on it and no makers mark. Think it’s a cheap knock off possibly. Thanks in advance.

FEAEBAA2-FB96-4384-A393-10195A2FB6B5.jpeg 8684E6A2-3886-4B9C-981A-3577B44B73D3.jpeg B07C6D78-B932-4F4D-918E-BB2ED1D710C5.jpeg 5FE254FC-6134-4350-8058-0CCEBD1F59A5.jpeg
 

Isaac

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Can you post pictures of the movement and the gong mount? That will tell us a lot of information even if the movement isn't stamped.
 

Isaac

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Great! Thank you.
 

Isaac

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Definitely not a cheap knockoff movement. 14 might be the batch number (this was used to keep all parts of a movement together during its original assembly). Thick plates, solid pinions, and adjustable pallet anchor escapement. It might be hard to identify the maker since there is no mark, but it is a quality clock movement all around.
 

Paddypup

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Definitely not a cheap knockoff movement. 14 might be the batch number (this was used to keep all parts of a movement together during its original assembly). Thick plates, solid pinions, and adjustable pallet anchor escapement. It might be hard to identify the maker since there is no mark, but it is a quality clock movement all around.
Wow thanks. I was reading up on this site about the Korean clocks but some say that the plates are thin. Even I noticed they are not on this. Paid 64 for it. Missing finials on top and bottoms
 

Paddypup

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Wow thanks. I was reading up on this site about the Korean clocks but some say that the plates are thin. Even I noticed they are not on this. Paid 64 for it. Missing finials on top and bottoms
The man on the gong is not common I think
 

Paddypup

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The veneer work on the case is decent. So possibly this too would point to a good clock.
would be nice to get a maker.
 

Paddypup

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Definitely not a cheap knockoff movement. 14 might be the batch number (this was used to keep all parts of a movement together during its original assembly). Thick plates, solid pinions, and adjustable pallet anchor escapement. It might be hard to identify the maker since there is no mark, but it is a quality clock movement all around.
Thanks a lot for helping
 

new2clocks

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Think it’s a cheap knock off possibly.
As Isaac stated, your Vienna style wall clock is not a "knock-off".

It appears to be German, made in the early part of the 20th century.

Most unmarked German movements were made by either Kienzle or Mauthe, but I will leave the identification of the maker to those who can identify unmarked movements.

Regards.
 

Paddypup

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As Isaac stated, your Vienna style wall clock is not a "knock-off".

It appears to be German, made in the early part of the 20th century.

Most unmarked German movements were made by either Kienzle or Mauthe, but I will leave the identification of the maker to those who can identify unmarked movements.

Regards.
Thank you. It was slow to get moving but I put some clock oil on-and it started up. Only picked it up today. Hopefully we can get a maker for it.
 

Paddypup

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Thank you. It was slow to get moving but I put some clock oil on-and it started up. Only picked it up today. Hopefully we can get a maker for it.
The face of the lady is not solid wood but a plaster mould. Not sure if that will help with dating etc.
 

Yahagi

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For comparison:
A little later, the RSM walker was produced, but with a rose designation.

23 Bracket.jpg 23 Mvmt Back.jpg
 

Yahagi

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Yes. This is indicated by both the structure of the mechanism and the hanger.
These types of hangers are associated with the RSM.

6b913dd54b348c987f874d0d5c39.jpg dd13a4754454b12dae4ebed9c2a2.jpg f21552e34bf1b53d68eed21ae71a.jpg Изображение 053.jpg Изображение 057.jpg Изображение 059.jpg
 

Yahagi

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I would have placed it 1885-1890. But it is very difficult for me to defend it. I observe the development and changes of R_S_M mechanisms and I see a bit how they were built before and how later. Hence this time range.
The earlier ones had, for example, the following anchor structure:

17.jpg
 

Paddypup

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I would have placed it 1885-1890. But it is very difficult for me to defend it. I observe the development and changes of R_S_M mechanisms and I see a bit how they were built before and how later. Hence this time range.
The earlier ones had, for example, the following anchor structure:

View attachment 661035
Ok. Well you were very helpful. I will be happier cleaning it up now. Many thanks
 

Yahagi

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If you can take off the clock face, please. It would be especially valuable to know if there is a letter ... as in the attached photo the letter 'H'
greetings

5_plyty_przod.jpg
 

Yahagi

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Thanks a lot...

So far I have seen B, X, E, A, M, H ....
F - it happens for the first time. Unfortunately, I have no idea what these letters could mean. Maybe we'll find out someday.

All the rest of the mechanism - as predicted. No surprises :)
 

Paddypup

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Thanks a lot...

So far I have seen B, X, E, A, M, H ....
F - it happens for the first time. Unfortunately, I have no idea what these letters could mean. Maybe we'll find out someday.

All the rest of the mechanism - as predicted. No surprises :)
Well it’s more info
Thanks a lot...

So far I have seen B, X, E, A, M, H ....
F - it happens for the first time. Unfortunately, I have no idea what these letters could mean. Maybe we'll find out someday.

All the rest of the mechanism - as predicted. No surprises :)
great. It’s still a decent clock I’m sure and pretty old. Thanks for the help.
 
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John Hubby

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To all, I agree Paddypup's clock serial number 14 has a movement made by Reinhold Schnekenburger Muhlheim. The design is a copy of the French countwheel style movements similar to those made later by Carl Werner and Kienzle, but was in my opinion made by RMS because this style movement (there were only two basic design changes made in later years) constitute nearly half of all the clocks produced from 1882 until the October 1913 boiler explosion that nearly destroyed the part of the factory where the RSM design movements were being made. When the factory was rebuilt and restarted about mid-1914 the RSM Rose logo was discontinued by the Muller brothers (Uhrenfabrik Muhlheim Muller & Co or UMMC). However, they continued to use the same batch numbering system introduced by Schnekenburgher at least until 1930. My database shows Paddypup's clock was made in first half 1882 shortly after Schnekenburger acquired the business and prior to his introduction of either his RSM Rose logo or his batch numbering system both of which were initiated later in 1882. The movement characteristics firmly support this conclusion, including the plate layouts, the anchor pivot support design, the anchor escapement, and the style of the count wheel. Regarding the letters mentioned by Yahagi, I have also observed these but have no idea yet what is their significance. Also this is the first letter F I have seen.

For information I have identified five different movement designs made by RMS prior to the introduction of his batch numbering system. These include

Time Only Spring Driven (TOS) without and with the RSM Rose logo.
Time Only Weight Driven (TOW), so far only with the RSM Rose logo
Time-Strike Spring Driven Countwheel (TSSC), without and with the RSM logo
Time-Strike Spring Driven Rack Strike (TSSR), so far only with the RSM logo
Time-Strike Weight Driven Rack Strike (TSWR), so far only with the RSM Logo

The movements without or with the RSM logo are considered two distinct variants for dating purposes, thus a total of seven variants altogether.

To date my data do not show any one of these variants with more than 30 movements made of that variant and there are so far no duplicate serial numbers within any of the actual seven variants.

RMS bim-bam strike movements were not introduced until after his batch numbering system was started. The earliest example I have in my data was made in late 1882.

Once Schnekenburger started his batch numbering system is is apparent he started with serial number 1_1 for the first batch, as we have recently documented clock number 46_16 from the second batch and easily count back to that beginning number. To understand the numbers, the first digit is the sequential serial number that was never repeated from the beginning, and the second digit being no. 1 of 30 in that batch. We do not know why he decided to use 30 clocks as a batch size, however since none of the earlier clock types have not exceeded 30 it may be this decision was made before he actually started using his batch system. When the 30th clock had been made the consecutive serial number advanced by 1 digit and the batch number returned to 1. For example, after clock number 30_30 had been made, the next clock was number 31_1 and so on. This batch number sequencing was continued throughout the history of this maker and successors. There are some anomalies in the sequencing, across time however these are ALL in either 10 or 20 digits difference so it appears to have been planned.
 
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Paddypup

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To all, I agree Paddypup's clock serial number 14 has a movement made by Reinhold Schnekenburger Muhlheim. The design is a copy of the French countwheel style movements similar to those made later by Carl Werner and Kienzle, but was in my opinion made by RMS because this style movement (there were only two basic design changes made in later years) constitute nearly half of all the clocks produced from 1882 until the October 1913 boiler explosion that nearly destroyed the part of the factory where the RSM design movements were being made. When the factory was rebuilt and restarted about mid-1914 the RSM Rose logo was discontinued by the Muller brothers (Uhrenfabrik Muhlheim Muller & Co or UMMC). However, they continued to use the same batch numbering system introduced by Schnekenburgher at least until 1930. My database shows Paddypup's clock was made in first half 1882 shortly after Schnekenburger acquired the business and prior to his introduction of either his RSM Rose logo or his batch numbering system both of which were initiated later in 1882. The movement characteristics firmly support this conclusion, including the plate layouts, the anchor pivot support design, the anchor escapement, and the style of the count wheel. Regarding the letters mentioned by Yahagi, I have also observed these but have no idea yet what is their significance. Also this is the first letter F I have seen.

For information I have identified five different movement designs made by RMS prior to the introduction of his batch numbering system. These include

Time Only Spring Driven (TOS) without and with the RSM Rose logo.
Time Only Weight Driven (TOW), so far only with the RSM Rose logo
Time-Strike Spring Driven Countwheel (TSSC), without and with the RSM logo
Time-Strike Spring Driven Rack Strike (TSSR), so far only with the RSM logo
Time-Strike Weight Driven Rack Strike (TSWR), so far only with the RSM Logo

The movements without or with the RSM logo are considered two distinct variants for dating purposes, thus a total of seven variants altogether.

To date my data do not show any one of these variants with more than 30 movements made of that variant and there are so far no duplicate serial numbers within any of the actual seven variants.

RMS bim-bam strike movements were not introduced until after his batch numbering system was started. The earliest example I have in my data was made in late 1882.

Once Schnekenburger started his batch numbering system is is apparent he started with serial number 1_1 for the first batch, as we have recently documented clock number 46_16 from the second batch and easily count back to that beginning number. To understand the numbers, the first digit is the sequential serial number that was never repeated from the beginning, and the second digit being no. 1 of 30 in that batch. We do not know why he decided to use 30 clocks as a batch size, however since none of the earlier clock types have not exceeded 30 it may be this decision was made before he actually started using his batch system. When the 30th clock had been made the consecutive serial number advanced by 1 digit and the batch number returned to 1. For example, after clock number 30_30 had been made, the next clock was number 31_1 and so on. This batch number sequencing was continued throughout the history of this maker and successors. There are some anomalies in the sequencing, across time however these are ALL in either 10 or 20 digits difference so it appears to have been planned.
Hello. The information that all of you have taken the time to offer up is very interesting and appreciated.
I’m a cabinet maker by trade so the case is one aspect of the clock I would have more knowledge in craftsmanship etc.
Being a clock from 1882 that runs as we speak is a testament to the craftsmanship of the age. Thanks to all of you who took the time to offer up an opinion.
 

Paddypup

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Hello. The information that all of you have taken the time to offer up is very interesting and appreciated.
I’m a cabinet maker by trade so the case is one aspect of the clock I would have more knowledge in craftsmanship etc.
Being a clock from 1882 that runs as we speak is a testament to the craftsmanship of the age. Thanks to all of you who took the time to offer up an opinion.
The clock case itself seems to be missing finials and has some damage on the veneer.
Are these clocks valuable even in this state. Any repair, like replacing finials would not leave it in an original condition. ?
 

John Hubby

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Yahagi posted:

For comparison:
A little later, the RSM walker was produced, but with a rose designation.

23 Bracket.jpg 23 Mvmt Back.jpg

Yahagi, thanks for posting your serial number 23. I documented your clock movement first in 2011 from an eBay auction, and later in 2012 from the actual movement at NAWCC Lone Star Regional in Mesquite. It is one of 10 of those in my data, lowest serial number 4 and highest serial number 24. It would have been made about mid-1882 shortly after the RSM Rose logo was introduced. The movements of the same design but without the RSM Rose logo were made in first half 1882 and had their own set of serial numbers.
 

Yahagi

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John Hubby:
Many thanks for a bit of history at RSM, especially for the factory disaster. Only now did I find out about it. That is very interesting.

Let me discuss the dating of this clock.
For starters - I don't think RSM will start signing their clocks right away, or even at the start of production. I think it might have been around 1890.

If we take the year 1882 as the beginning of Reinchold Schneckenburger's adventure with clocks, then we would have to fit several other structures in front of the clock shown by Paddypup, which would mean that we have located Amann. I don't dare to say it out loud :)

For some time now, I have been trying to establish the sequence of technological changes in RSM based on my and Tatiana's sources (thank you here). I wrote a little about my observations on the Polish clock forum. I divided the development into stages, without strictly related to dates, because I have no hard foundation for it.
The Paddypup clock is the third stage in the development of the RSM for me.

In the Paddypup clock shown, I would like to highlight the hanger, which is already a cast. I think that previously the hangers were cut from sheet metal.
It is also worth looking at the pendulum. The oldest have a T-key in their lens (I have no idea how the translator will translate it :)). U Paddypup - there is a later construction. In my statement, I agree with Phase 3.
Wah0.jpg Wah1.jpg


Likewise, the hands of the clock are later.
Wsk1.jpg Wsk0.jpg



But in my opinion, these changes are most noticeable at the anchor.


k1.jpg k2.jpg k3.jpg

In my opinion, these 3 stages looked like this.

Paddypup - has an anchor of 3.
 
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Yahagi

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I would like to show you a few more photos. Clock with number 17. The style of this clock's case should be compared to the one shown by Paddypup.
This is obviously not a guarantee, but the "17" seems to be much older. And the project shows it.
The date written on the chest is especially valuable here. 13/12 (18) 83. I suspect this is the date written by the seller, maybe the warranty date. There is no certainty.
In my list this clock is in stage 1. Unfortunately I have no pictures of the anchor for this mechanism, but I have pictures of similar ones on this hanger. This is anchor number 1.
You can find quite a lot of similar clocks (I have the mechanism from this stage at home from number 5). And that would mean she wasn't
it's a small production or that lasted for several years.

So in my opinion ... if the clock shown by Paddypup were to be 1882 - '17' would have to be produced a bit earlier. There is nowhere to fit ... with its execution, because 1882 is the beginning of the RSM, and that would mean that we found Amann. I dare not say that.

John Hubby - I'm curious about your insights.
greetings
Yahagi

1d6a10e54922bcb290bc54469051.jpg 2e7a72fa4ac28a10cf5426175250.jpg 6f31b64e414fb6f8040c42d3532a.jpg 234df61845eb9070148f2731bd61.jpg aaea1e4c4541b56feec2577dad4e.jpg bedcc0f147779d137ed67c5fe958.jpg d2bbc86d4a5cb2a02aaec9eeb2f2.jpg
 

Paddypup

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I would like to show you a few more photos. Clock with number 17. The style of this clock's case should be compared to the one shown by Paddypup.
This is obviously not a guarantee, but the "17" seems to be much older. And the project shows it.
The date written on the chest is especially valuable here. 13/12 (18) 83. I suspect this is the date written by the seller, maybe the warranty date. There is no certainty.
In my list this clock is in stage 1. Unfortunately I have no pictures of the anchor for this mechanism, but I have pictures of similar ones on this hanger. This is anchor number 1.
You can find quite a lot of similar clocks (I have the mechanism from this stage at home from number 5). And that would mean she wasn't
it's a small production or that lasted for several years.

So in my opinion ... if the clock shown by Paddypup were to be 1882 - '17' would have to be produced a bit earlier. There is nowhere to fit ... with its execution, because 1882 is the beginning of the RSM, and that would mean that we found Amann. I dare not say that.

John Hubby - I'm curious about your insights.
greetings
Yahagi

View attachment 661157 View attachment 661158 View attachment 661159 View attachment 661160 View attachment 661161 View attachment 661162 View attachment 661163
So 1882 May not be the production date. You think I may actually earlier but not all aspects of construction point to this? lots to take in. And Amann?
Thanks
 

Paddypup

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So 1882 May not be the production date. You think I may actually earlier but not all aspects of construction point to this? lots to take in. And Amann?
Thanks
Also if you need anymore precise photos of case or movement I’m happy to oblige
 

John Hubby

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Yahagi, thanks very much for the information you have posted. With regard to the dating, I have a number of clocks in my data that have service dates, presentation dates, DRGM Patents, etc., from 1883 to 1899 that clearly show Schnekenburger's batch numbering system and signing of his logo had to begin no later than the beginning of 1883 and in my opinion actually before that in second half 1882. It "may" be possible that the clocks without a RSM Rose logo and no batch number were made by Amman, however they are completely identical to those of the same design made with the logo and no batch number. Once the batch numbering system started I have found no evidence whatever that clocks were made that did not have this numbering AND the RSM Rose logo, first the large format design and starting in 1893 the small format design.

Also it is physically impossible that the dating system and signing started in 1890 or later. Serial number 79310 is the first of several clocks in my data stamped with DRGM 113027 for a bit-bam strike control, which was granted 8 March 1899 and obviously used from that date until its expiry in 1902. Had all the signed movements been made starting 1890 (lowest serial number documented to date 46_16) that would mean that more than 8,800 clocks per year would have had to be made from 1890 to first quarter 1899. The actual production rates confirmed by confirmed date examples are in the order of 4,000 to 5000 clocks per year from 1883 to early 1899.

My data also show that only about 210 clocks were made before the introduction of the batch numbering system. This estimate is based on there being five different design movements with two having 2 variants as I mentioned earlier, and none of these has a serial number higher than 28 at this writing and after collecting data for more than 15 years.

MOVEMENT DESIGN/VARIANTLOWEST SERIAL NUMBERHIGHEST SERIAL NUMBER
Time Only Spring Drive No LogoLowest: 6Highest: 17
Time Only Spring Drive RSMLowest: 4Highest: 24
Time Only Weight Drive RSMLowest: 5Highest: 25
Time/Countwheel Strike Sprg No LogoLowest: 12Highest: 26
Time/Countwheel Strike Spring RSMLowest: 3Highest: 26
Time/Rack Strike Spring Drive RSMLowest: 14Highest: 22
Time/Rack Strike Weight Drive RSMLowest: 5Highest: 28

My opinion is that Schnekenburger started production of each movement design with a separate set of serial numbers, all beginning with the number 1, and soon found that he could not manage either quality control or inventory with several clocks all with the same serial number but of different types. He developed his batch numbering system before these first clocks were completed and introduced it very quickly to ensure he could manage his business. On point easily concluded from these examples being such a small number, is that this very small quantity would not in any way have supported Schekenburger's business for any significant length of time. There is no question his production was in the low thousands per year early on, also that there were at least 79,310 clocks made by early 1899 and at least 153,230 made by the time the RSM Rose logo was no longer used from October 1913.

I have not included the full striking torsion pendulum 400-Day Kohler-Bauer Patent wall clocks produced initially by Schnekenburger (1894-1895), as these had a completely separate set of serial numbers. Schnekenburger's production of these stopped by end 1895 and was moved to the factory of Carl Bauer of Furth. where sales started in January 1896 and continued to about 1900.

Finally, with regard to the clock you have posted that has the date 13/12/1893 written (wonderful find!!!) it is possible this was a sale date as you have supposed. I would more likely think it was a service date put there by a repair person, as this clock per my date would have been made at least a year earlier. However, it is also possible this clock was made much earlier than it was sold, not at all unusual in those days.

One thing I have not yet confirmed with certainty is the actual date when Amman sold the business to Schnekenburger, other than sometime in 1882. Do you have any documentary evidence of when this occurred? My data are easily adjustable to account for the actual date.
 
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Yahagi

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John Hubby ..

Let me reply in the main RSM thread so as not to make a mess (?)
greetings
Yahagi
 

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