Help identify the clock manufacturer

[Tool]

Greetings! Please help me determine the manufacturer and the year of release of this mechanism.

 

[Tool]

Greetings! Please help me determine the manufacturer and the year of release of this mechanism.

 

[JTD]

Welcome to the board.

This logo is not from Gustav Becker. It is a logo which, up to now, has not been identified.

JTD

 

[new2clocks]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

You have posted this request on the "Post Your Becker Clocks" thread. And your post was answered there.

Multiple threads on the same issue only causes confusion. The people who can answer your question read the Becker forum and this forum, so you are not reaching our to a larger audience.

Regards.

 

[Tool]

Welcome to the board.

This logo is not from Gustav Becker. It is a logo which, up to now, has not been identified.

JTD

Sorry, thanks.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

I have combined the posts from the Becker thread into this independent thread.

 

[new2clocks]

Welcome to the board.

This logo is not from Gustav Becker. It is a logo which, up to now, has not been identified.

JTD

The trademark on the OP's movement is identical, or very, very similar to, the trademark of Germania. The difference is in the letters within the trademark.

I do not know the granular details of the German trademark laws back in the day, but I seriously doubt a logo would be registered today that is so close in design to another registered trademark, unless permission was given by the first trademark owner.

I am not stating that the OP's movement is a Germania because of the trademark. Perhaps Tatyana can opine on the movement from a technical perspective.

And, perhaps the letters "J A" within the trademark have some connection to Germania.

Regards.

 

[Tatyana]

This movement was made by Kienzle (Schwenningen) in the late 19th century.
I have 9 movements with this signature in my database.
But there is no idea who owns the signature.

Regards
Tatyana

 

[tarant]

There are problems (whole Europe, Poland only?) with loading pictures from NAWCC for few days. JA is still unknown producer/wholeseller from Freiburg in Schlesien. H.H. Schmid posted this signature here almost ten years ago. There are similiarities with Regulatorfabrik Germania. And that's all. So far.

 

[new2clocks]

This movement was made by Kienzle (Schwenningen) in the late 19th century.
I have 9 movements with this signature in my database.
But there is no idea who owns the signature.

Regards
Tatyana

Thanks, Tatyana.

The following is from H-H Schmid, which is interesting now that Tatyana has identified the OP's movement as Kienzle. My emphasis in bold.

When the production of the VFU was switched to new movements, these unfinished movements were then completed, even with parts by Kienzle (!), These movements were marked with "Freiburg i Schl." and labeled with a new (and arbitrary) serial number. This new number has nothing in common with the serial numbers of Germania or G. Becker.
And these "clocks of the trade", as we call them in Germany, may have been put some years after the merger in small quantities on the market, so as not to confuse the clock prices.

I do not know if Schmid's thoughts, above, were incorporated into his last version of the Lexikon.

tarant I agree that until we can prove that the OP's trademark belongs to a particular firm, we should assume that the trademark is of an unknown wholesaler / retailer.

However, the OP's trademark and that of Germania are too similar to disregard the possibility that Germania (VFU?) may have had some type of connection with the OP's trademark.

Regards.

 

[Yahagi]

I tried a bit to explore the subject of "JA". But the more I looked, the less it all went together.

In my opinion:
I don't think there are such 'unfinished mechanisms'.
By observing the final (highest) numbers of the Kappel / Concordia and Willmann mechanisms, it is possible to see which of them were created during the VFU times. Certain features are changing rapidly and this influence can be seen.
I do not see it only in the highest numbers of Germania (maybe there were no stocks?), But I am not like Germania.
They are unlike any of the Freiburg products. They are similar only to Kienzle. (my opinion)

Tatyana judged them to be from the end of the 19th century. I believe it is. I note the large discrepancy between numbers ... and only a few cases that have been found.

There was a theory that JA was derived from the surnames (August) John & (Gottlieb / Karl) Ansorge. I looked for arguments confirming this, but apart from the similarity in the names - I do not know any evidence supporting this.

In my opinion it could be Kienzle broker or Kienzle himself who tried to increase sales based on the slogan 'Freiburg'.

Nevertheless, the similarity of the logo of Germania and JA is very puzzling.

For me I remain as still unexplained.

 

[Yahagi]

Maybe a few more observations ...

Today I returned to my documents.
I guess if JA had to do with John & Ansorge it would have to be 1899-> 1904. That's 5 years. A very long time in my opinion and it is probably not normal. This is the time of liquidation of the Germania cooperative.
I found two documents on this topic.

Is it possible that during this period, during the liquidation, the production of own mechanisms was stopped and the Kienzle was used? I don't know if that could have happened. But if it's John & Ansorge - it's only at this time. However, I cannot defend this with evidence.

As a curiosity, I am adding an interesting seal on the chest. Unfortunately, it is not entirely legible, but it is not exactly the stamp of Germania.

 

[JTD]

This is a logo which up to now has not been identified. I think you have posted this also in the Gustav Becker thread - this is not a Gustav Becker movement as far as is known.

Maybe a few more observations ...

Today I returned to my documents.
I guess if JA had to do with John & Ansorge it would have to be 1899-> 1904. That's 5 years. A very long time in my opinion and it is probably not normal. This is the time of liquidation of the Germania cooperative.
I found two documents on this topic.

Is it possible that during this period, during the liquidation, the production of own mechanisms was stopped and the Kienzle was used? I don't know if that could have happened. But if it's John & Ansorge - it's only at this time. However, I cannot defend this with evidence.

As a curiosity, I am adding an interesting seal on the chest. Unfortunately, it is not entirely legible, but it is not exactly the stamp of Germania.

View attachment 682461 View attachment 682462 View attachment 682463

The mark stamped on the wood is very interesting - it looks very like the JA mark, if only we could see the middle clearly!

Since it says 'eingetragene Schutzmarke' around the logo, it must be registered somewhere - I wonder if we can find it?

It would be so good if we could finally identify the JA mark.

JTYD