Help identify old family grandfather clock

ilzho

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Feb 12, 2016
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Dallas, TX
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Hello:

My parents gave me a grandfather clock that has been in the family for a while.
I believe it came from my grandparents who were from Germany, not sure if the clock came from there.

It does work intermittently (I will get it fixed) as I just moved with it. It's over 7 feet tall.

On the back of the dial it states 116 & 829.
I do not know where else to look for a markers mark.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
David
 

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macaw

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It's a very nice German Roundhead with a well made movement unlike anything today, and well worth repairing.
Mark
 

harold bain

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Hi, David, welcome to the message board.
Best guess for maker would be Mauthe, a German company. Likely made in the 1920's. It should have 3 weights and chains, one for the chime, one for the strike and one for the time.
 

chimeclockfan

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Dec 21, 2006
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Looks more like a 3/4 Westminster chime movement from Winterhalder or Kieninger. Similar movements have turned up in the past, they play Westminster on the quarters but at top of hour it only strikes.
 

ilzho

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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Dallas, TX
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Here are some more pictures. I could not find any more marks except on the chime box, it has 12p:???: Yes one chim bar fell out, I still have it.
More pictures of some of the internal parts.
It does have 2 weights, not 3.
Thanks for all of the information.
If I could ID this, it would be neat to know.
 

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lpbp

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Looks like a Westminster movement that someone has adapted to the case, the seaboard looks new, and it has what appears to be a bim-bam gong in it. Ive would need detailed pictures, that are clear to determine any thing for sure.
 

ilzho

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Feb 12, 2016
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Dallas, TX
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Ok I'll take clearer close ups when I'm at home. just not sure what components you need to see. I guess everything haha.
 

John Hubby

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Looks more like a 3/4 Westminster chime movement from Winterhalder or Kieninger. Similar movements have turned up in the past, they play Westminster on the quarters but at top of hour it only strikes.
CCF is correct, this is a 2-weight 3/4 Westminster chime movement chiming and striking on an 8-rod gong.

Very interesting the chiming hammers are reversed.
The Westminster chime mechanism on the right is typical of all 3/4 Westminster chime movements I have seen. That is because the main power source for both the chime and strike is from the normal strike side train. There are some movements (including Gustav Becker) that have the time and strike side tied together by gearing to provide the additional spring force and duration needed for the clock to chime and strike, but I don't see any such connection on this movement.

Looks like a Westminster movement that someone has adapted to the case, the seaboard looks new, and it has what appears to be a bim-bam gong in it. Ive would need detailed pictures, that are clear to determine any thing for sure.
The close-up photo of the gong mount is deceiving being "straight on" and does look like a 2-rod bin-bam gong. However, photo No. 5 in the first group of photos shows the complete gong and multiple rods are evident. An angle view of the gong would show the seven gong rods still in place.

The seat board may be new, however the finish appears to be very similar to the outside of the case. The lack of paint in the holes for the chains and pull cord has been seen before, where one basic seat board is used for multiple movement designs. For example, this same board could be drilled for a 3-weight 4/4 Westminster chime, this 2-weight 3/4 Westiminster chime, also for a 2-weight bin-bam strike and a 2-weight time & strike. I don't think the movement is a retrofit since it matches the 8-rod gong that doesn't appear to have evidence of there having been other gongs mounted there. A photo of the back of the case would show whether other holes are present.

I don't know who made the movement. It is of quality construction, hopefully another of our users may have one like this or at least very similar with positive identification.
 

ilzho

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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Dallas, TX
Country
When looking at the 'holder of the chime rods' above the 12 P I see an "S" then a space and maybe an 'a'.
Don;t know if this would help in an identification or not, but here's the pic.
 

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John Hubby

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David, thanks for posting all the additional photos. The mounting screws and washers for the gong that show in the photo of the back of the clock are completely original in my opinion, which supports the originality of the gong and movement.

The movement photos confirm that both the chime and strike functions are driven solely from the strike train. Since there is no photo of the front of the movement we have to speculate somewhat how it functions, but it is relatively straightforward. There is a lever on the back plate that is moved toward or away from the plate by a shaft that goes through the movement and would extend to a control cam or lever on the front. The rear lever moves the chiming mechanism shaft toward or away from a small gear on an extension of the first wheel of the strike train. When engaged the chiming mechanism and hammers will work to chime the quarter, half, and three-quarter hours. When not engaged the chiming mechanism will not move.

The same shaft that positions the chiming mechanism also positions a lever connected to the strike hammer shaft. When the chiming mechanism is disconnected, the strike hammer lever is positioned so it will be actuated by the star wheel mounted on the front of the same strike train first wheel that drives the chiming mechanism. On the front of the movement there will be a cam that controls the quarter, half, and three-quarter hour chimes. There will also be a rack and snail mechanism that controls the hour strike.

As mentioned earlier this is a quality movement. Hopefully one of our users will have the same movement for which the maker is identified and we can then know who made it an approximately when.
 

ilzho

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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3
Dallas, TX
Country
Awesome information. Thank you so much. One question, the hammers look to have some type of leather as the pad that strikes the chimes, when I get the clock worked on should I request that these stay or is there a quality replacement?
I will be looking for a quality clock repairman in the Dallas area, but I'm in no rush.
I just love the originality of it and would hate for someone to replace quality parts with junk, if that makes sense.
 

chimeclockfan

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Dec 21, 2006
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The gong block is a standard type made by a gong supplier such as Hengstler of Aldingen. 3/4 Westminster chime clocks used to be popular alternatives to the full 4/4 Westminster chime movements which were always more expensive to build and sell. The majority of such clocks turn up in the USA but I have seen examples in Britain and Germany. With the rise of cheap-to-build 4/4 chime movements from the likes of Hermle, demand for 3/4 chime clocks dwindled.
 

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