Help ID maker and age

Ron Roberts

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What is the style name for this clock? I do not recognize this trademark. Who, where and when was it made.
I do not have this clock in my shop so below are the best pictures I could make.

IMG_0634.jpg IMG_0635.jpg IMG_0636.jpg IMG_0637.jpg
 

Steven Thornberry

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The clock style is called Freischwinger (literally, free swinger). The logo is that of Franke & Gronemann of Teschen, Austria (1890 to 1936). Others will fill in the gaps.
 

Ron Roberts

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This is not a freeswinger. The pendulum does not hang below the case. The case bottom is solid and the pendulum is inside the case.
 

Yahagi

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The highest F&G number I've ever seen is almost 27 xxx. This will help to clarify the production date a bit.
 

new2clocks

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The logo is that of Franke & Gronemann of Teschen, Austria (1890 to 1936).
Franke & Gronemann were together in business since 1891 till 1898
Why such a discrepancy in dates?

Here is what we know .....

(1)

Carl Gronemann left the company known as Franke & Gronemann in 1897 or 1898. The following advertisement (courtesy oled) was from 1900:


1660406125058.png

A literal translation of the advertisement is "Carl Gronemann, formerly Franke & Gronemann". Technically, this translation (assuming my translation is accurate) means that the legal entity Franke & Gronemann changed its name to Carl Gronemann and Gronemann owned all of the assets of F&G.

I suspect that the advertisement meant to state "Carl Gronemann, formerly of Franke & Gronemann".

(2)

Oled states in this thread "Franke & Gronemann firm was closed in 1898 and both companions has started their own business".

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(3)

H-H Schmid, in the Lexikon, states:

The marketing of the clocks was taken over by the Viennese businessman Gronemann and the firm's name changed from Johann Franke to Franke & Gronemann. Gronemann left the business in 1897, so Franke took over the marketing of the clocks.

Franke died in 1903 and his two sons, Alfred and Hans took over the management of the company. The factory in Teschen was enlarged in 1907 and there was a sales office in Vienna. The company was well-known for the good quality of its clocks, every part (except springs and dials) was made in the company's factory, which also had a case building department.

In 1908 the company had more than 100 employees. After WW1 the company was nationalised by the Polish government in 1920 and was renamed Fabryka Zegarów Swit and was renamed Fabryka Zegarów Orion around 1930. In 1936 the company closed.
(Courtesy JTD)

The following are my observations / questions.

(1) We know Gronemann left the company F&G and started his own company. Based on the above advertisement, did Gronemann create a new legal entity?

(2) What company did Franke start, as indicated in Oled's statement? Was it a new legal entity or was it F&G with a change in operations (i.e., Gronemann was no longer in charge of marketing, having left to create his own company)?

(3) Based on the excerpt from Schmid (#3), it appears that the legal entity continued until 1936, although the original operations of F&G changed in 1898.

(4) Another piece of information that may be helpful is the corporate form (A.G., GmbH or KG) of F&G at the time Gronemann left the company.

Perhaps tarant or Oled or Tatyana or Yahagi can answer or comment on the above questions.

Regards.
 
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tarant

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Carl Gronemann was after the year 1898 the wholesaler only (probably). He was active until 1914 (again probably...). Most of the (popular) clocks he sold were produced by Johann Franke in Teschen (Cieszyn). They were in good cooperation. For instance, Gronemann was the owner of the patent for rod gongs in Austro - Hungary, and Franke was the first producer of the clocks with such gongs. Johann Franke clock manufactory was active until the end of IWW. It is not known whether they resumed production after the end of the war. Since the year 1920 production in former J. Franke manufactory was continued until the year 1936.
If You like net translators, read here:
 
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tarant

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P.S. Indeed, this is not classical Freischwinger - pendulum bob is not visible outside the case. These clocks were called Speisezimmeruhren - dining room clocks. Unfotunately, you have not posted good pictures of the whole case, but that's this model, I suppose:
Image 003.jpg

PPS. Hands are not original.
 

new2clocks

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Carl Gronemann was after the year 1898 the wholesaler only (probably). He was active until 1914 (again probably...). Most of the (popular) clocks he sold were produced by Johann Franke in Teschen (Cieszyn). They were in good cooperation. For instance, Gronemann was the owner of the patent for rod gongs in Austro - Hungary, and Franke was the first producer of the clocks with such gongs. Johann Franke clock manufactory was active until the end of IWW. It is not known whether they resumed production after the end of the war. Since the year 1920 production in former J. Franke manufactory was continued until the year 1936.
If You like net translators, read here:
Thank you for your response, Piotr.

You are very knowledgeably in F&G and I am aware that oled, Tatyana and yahagi are also well versed in F&G. And no, I do not trust internet translation services, as they tend to not translate within proper context. :)

I believe the difference in the dates of F&G's existence is that the legal entity continued until 1936, although the initial operations of F&G changed in 1898. It is the difference between the initial operations (a business perspective) and the legal operations (corporate perspective).

Regards.
 

tarant

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Thank you for your response, Piotr.

You are very knowledgeably in F&G and I am aware that oled, Tatyana and yahagi are also well versed in F&G. And no, I do not trust internet translation services, as they tend to not translate within proper context. :)

I believe the difference in the dates of F&G's existence is that the legal entity continued until 1936, although the initial operations of F&G changed in 1898. It is the difference between the initial operations (a business perspective) and the legal operations (corporate perspective).

Regards.
There was no legal entity until 1936. In the year 1918 Austro - Hungarian Empire and its laws collapsed. Poland, after more than hundred years after its fall, rose again. Clock manufactory Johann Franke in Teschen was nationalized. Teschen became Cieszyn. Only buildings, machines and some old workers remained.
 

new2clocks

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There was no legal entity until 1936.
The year 1936 is when the company went out of business.

There may be some translation confusion on what a legal entity is. A basic explanation is a legal entity is a business that is incorporated (AG), or a "pass-through" entity (GmbH) or a partnership (KG). (Note: a "pass through" entity is a U.S. concept and may not translate properly.)

In the year 1918 Austro - Hungarian Empire and its laws collapsed.
Piotr, do you have any documentation regarding F&G? Specifically, do you know what form of company (an AG, a GmbH or a Kg) F&G was at the time Gronemann left in 1898? From 1899 to 1918?

Thank you and regards.
 

tarant

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Franke & Gronemann had simple Gesselschaftsfirma - production company, with two owners.

post-6402-0-85061300-1415645075.jpg

Johann Franke was left alone in business in the year 1898. For two years he was the owner of clock manufactory in Inzerdorf near Vienna. There's no data on the factory in Teschen in this period. Franke came back to Teschen in the year 1901.

post-6402-0-09504900-1415643725.jpg

post-6402-0-27951900-1415645682.jpg

Firma Johann Franke had one owner until his death (28.06.1905) his sons took over the business.

Scans are from the OUUZ (Austo - Hungarian Clockmakers Newspaper). Larger article about Johann Franke Clock Factory was published in OUUZ No. 5 from October 1908.
 
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