Help ID Coiled Gong Chiming WM clock

Isaac

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Hi all,

Just got this little WM chiming clock for what I think is a pretty good price. It's not labeled anywhere according to the seller, and the movement layout seems pretty unique. My first thought was Mauthe or Kienzle from the chime hammer arrangement with the large disk drum, but the rest of the movement doesn't follow the design of either companies movements. The depthening of the chime fly pinion looks like it can be adjusted on the rear plate, an interesting feature. The chime/silence mechanism is operated through the back of the clock as well and lifts the chime hammers away.


Any ideas? I'm stumped on this one.
 
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Isaac

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Salsagev

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Great fine, Isaac! You seem to be pretty lucky with your eBay finds!
Gathering my thoughts:
The trident hands look quite interesting.

My first thought was LFS but its different style movement.
 

Salsagev

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Isaac

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There are still some differences though which make me scratch my head. Namely, the hammer arrangement and also the movement plate sizes. The one in my example has tall and narrow plates, while all of the PHS clocks I've seen have more square plates. All PHS clocks I've seen have also had the sub-plate on the rear movement plate to remove the chime mainspring barrel - this one doesn't seem to have that either. Also the chime barrel is cut out differently on the marked PHS examples I've seen. It's super close to what I think PHS would make, but there's enough differences to cast doubts on that IMHO.

EDIT: Found a large bracket clock by them which has the tall & skinny version of the movement chiming on 4 rods and 1 coil gong for the strike. I think I nailed it. I wonder if one version of the movement is "high grade" over the other variant?

I've never seen an unmarked PHS clock without the rabbit logo.



Great fine, Isaac! You seem to be pretty lucky with your eBay finds!
Gathering my thoughts:
The trident hands look quite interesting.

My first thought was LFS but its different style movement.
Thanks! It might need some work (and at least a cleaning) but it should definitely be a great addition to my collection.
 
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Isaac

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Anyone have an approximate date when this would've been made? I'm going to guess 1910-1915?
 

chimeclockfan

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Kienzle's coil gong chime clocks used the same movements as the more familiar rod chime models.
There isn't much documentation about PHS and virtually nothing about their chime clocks, but they are comparable to other Black Forest chime clocks from the 1910s-1920s period. It resembles other clocks from the same period going by the style of case and dial.

The older Kochmann publications wrongly claim PHS was gone by 1920.
According to the late Douglas Stevenson and Hans-Heinrich Schmid, PHS stopped clock production in 1930 and was liquidated in 1935.
 

WIngraham

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Nice find, a lot of clock in a small package. I have a PHS westminster clock that is small size (11'' tall), the case construction is similar to yours except that the top is a different shape. The movement is more of a square shape with the removable chime barrel like you mentioned in your earlier post, but they do share a lot of similarities. I don't know much about clocks like these, but they sure sound nice.

Will
 

Isaac

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Nice find, a lot of clock in a small package. I have a PHS westminster clock that is small size (11'' tall), the case construction is similar to yours except that the top is a different shape. The movement is more of a square shape with the removable chime barrel like you mentioned in your earlier post, but they do share a lot of similarities. I don't know much about clocks like these, but they sure sound nice.

Will
Thanks, Will. Does yours also chime and strike on 5 coils? Would love to see some photos or a video of your example regardless! Seems like PHS chiming clocks are super rare in general.
 

WIngraham

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Hey Isaac, yea it chimes and strikes on five coils. I was looking for a compact chiming clock and it fit the bill. The price was amazing but it needs a lot of work. The whole movement is covered in sticky grease like someone opened the back and just sprayed the inside. Strikes sluggish right now but still sounds good. I got it from an auction, where they were literally throwing the clocks around with the pendulums attached and all, it was hard to watch :banghead:
I don't have a video, but here's a few pics. I also wonder what the approx date is, couldn't find much info on dating PHS clocks.

Will

20210510_234234.jpg 20210510_234310.jpg 20210511_004120.jpg 20210511_004149.jpg 20210511_004156.jpg 20210511_004232.jpg
 

Isaac

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Very nice looking clock! Sad to hear about the auction, but that's what happens a lot of the time with people who don't deal with antique clocks on the regular. I find it a strange thing when companies cut off the base of the gong that mounts to the sound board (both yours and mine have the same cut). Looks like someone over-lubricated the movement. I suspect your clock to be made in the timeperiod CCF mentioned - 1910 to 1920s.

I'll be really interested to see the differences between your movement and mine, since they're both capable of being mounted in a small clock, I'd imagine there could potentially be quality differences between the two movement variants. Yours seems like it'll be a great restoration project. Some of the coils look like they're touching (but that just might be the picture).

Hey Isaac, yea it chimes and strikes on five coils. I was looking for a compact chiming clock and it fit the bill. The price was amazing but it needs a lot of work. The whole movement is covered in sticky grease like someone opened the back and just sprayed the inside. Strikes sluggish right now but still sounds good. I got it from an auction, where they were literally throwing the clocks around with the pendulums attached and all, it was hard to watch :banghead:
I don't have a video, but here's a few pics. I also wonder what the approx date is, couldn't find much info on dating PHS clocks.

Will

View attachment 653802 View attachment 653803 View attachment 653804 View attachment 653805 View attachment 653806 View attachment 653807
 
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new2clocks

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I've never seen an unmarked PHS clock without the rabbit logo.
Doug Stevenson was of the opinion (not sure if it has been verified) that PHS produced movements without the rabbit logo.

H-H Schmid was of the opinion that PHS purchased some movements and applied their PHS trademark to them. Perhaps someone with the latest Lexikon can review it to determine if he had enough information on this issue to note it in his publication.

The above may explain some of the questions that you have with your movement and PHS movements in general. :)

When you receive the movement and post pictures, perhaps Tatyana or CCF can opine on the maker.

Regards.
 

JTD

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H-H Schmid was of the opinion that PHS purchased some movements and applied their PHS trademark to them. Perhaps someone with the latest Lexikon can review it to determine if he had enough information on this issue to note it in his publication.
The latest edition of the Lexikon has four pages on PHS, with all sorts of interesting details, including how nasty Karl Haas was to the workers. However, there is very little on the subject of bought-in movements. The most I can find is the following:

"Research conducted by the author gives rise to the premise that the Haas company delivered movements with wooden plates for many years but their metal movements, until about 1900, were bought in from American manufacturers such as Waterbury and Seth Thomas and stamped with the Haas logo'.

Exactly what the 'research conducted by the author' was is not revealed.

Hope this helps a little.

JTD
 
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Isaac

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Doug Stevenson was of the opinion (not sure if it has been verified) that PHS produced movements without the rabbit logo.

H-H Schmid was of the opinion that PHS purchased some movements and applied their PHS trademark to them. Perhaps someone with the latest Lexikon can review it to determine if he had enough information on this issue to note it in his publication.

The above may explain some of the questions that you have with your movement and PHS movements in general. :)

When you receive the movement and post pictures, perhaps Tatyana or CCF can opine on the maker.

Regards.
The latest edition of the Lexikon has four pages on PHS, with all sorts of interesting details, including how nasty Karl Haas was to the workers. However, there is very little on the subject of bought-in movements. The most I can find is the following:

"Research conducted by the author gives rise to the premise that the Haas company delivered movements with wooden plates for many years but their metal movements, until about 1900, were bought in from American manufacturers such as Waterbury and Seth Thomas and stamped with the Haas logo'.

Exactly what the 'research conducted by the author' was is not revealed.

Hope this helps a little.

JTD
Thank you both for your responses. I presume it'd be safe to assume that both Will and I's examples (albeit different movement configurations) are from the PHS factory instead of being rebranded? The movements look inspired by the likes of Kienzle and Junghans. See below - the long striking lever on the back of the PHS movement looks exactly identical to the larger movement Kienzle used in their bracket clocks and some tambour clocks. The control cams are housed in between the plates, like earlier Junghans and Kienzle chime clocks. The front of the movement with the removable subplate for the springs looks very similar to what Junghans used for their chiming clocks.

There are enough differences though in design to say that PHS probably produced these clocks by themselves, IMHO. As mentioned on the board, a lot of German manufacturers seemed to get design inspirations from their competition.



 

Isaac

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Found another example of the same movement (different gong layout) on an inactive polish auction. Reminds me a ton of the Junghans 103 EH movement in design. Seems like it uses lantern pinions, although the 2nd wheel pinions might be solid. Looks to have relatively thick plates.

I wonder why the gong pedestal is almost halfway cut off? I would normally think it's just a result of damage, but all the examples I've seen with any coil gong assembly in the case have the pedestal partially cut away, which means it was a factory job.

 
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