Help Finding Balance Hole Jewels

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by Rick Hufnagel, Jun 7, 2019.

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  1. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Hello everyone!

    I'm having a pretty serious Hampden balance hole jewel problem. Not including my last post here on the repair forum.

    I have three 18s watches that need .16 hole jewels. An earlier model 1 grade 33, and Lafayette mod 2, and a long cock new York that I "think" take the same setting as old style hampdens.

    I can give up on the model 2, it's pretty beat up and would better serve as parts, but I really wanna get the new York and the model 1 Hampden going again. They're beautiful watches!

    I can't find these jewels anywhere! Measured a million times, tried .15 with no avail....

    The jewel dude can only go up to .15, my favorite parts guy doesn't have em, and another respected member suggested to reduce my pivot size, which I have no equipment or skill to do.

    I have to find a solution to this problem!

    Anyone have experience with this and can help? I can't be the only one finding .16 pivots on these movements. Any advice or anything please share. Thanks!
     
  2. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Seitz makes a hole 16 in lots of diameters, so if you drop a note to Quinton at Clean Time Jewels I bet he could make you some with no trouble. He's a good guy. Looks like his regular stock only goes up to 15, so it might take some patience and some extra bucks but he will be able to fix you up.
     
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  3. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    he's the jewel guy! He goes to .15

    He is great by the way, but in this case he is unable to help.

    He has gone above and beyond the call of duty for me a few times.
     
  4. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Ok, Plan B, then order yourself some 16s and replace the ones in his settings? Do you know what OD he uses? 16s are available in almost all the diameters 15s are: all except 140 according to the Borel catalog.
     
  5. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    (Plan C: get out your Jacot tool and change those crazy 16 staffs into 15s)

    I'm curious, did you just replace all those staffs? If so I wonder if you have oversize "factory seconds".
     
  6. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    16s would be a special order and are not easy to find. Seitz stops at 15 in their regular set. Marathon and Watch-Craft stop at 14. I have old jewel sets from the Waltham School and they all stop at 15.

    If you look at the Hampden parts book, the old style #1720 staff does go up to a pivot 15! However, look at the jewel section and the highest they go is also 15.
     
  7. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    I didn't replace them. I cracked the Hampden grade 33's when I popped it out. Bad mistake.

    The new yorks staff looks good, but the lower hole and cap are both broken, no idea how it got this way, the uppers are perfect.
     
  8. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    #8 Rick Hufnagel, Jun 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    Thanks Dave and Chris, you've both confirmed my fears that I have yet again found some off the wall projects.

    Maybe I'll try a metal bushing.. :confused:o_O
    Hahaha. Oh I'm kidding....

    Guess I have to think about this one. To be honest I was hoping someone would say "oh John doe keeps those on hand".

    Sounds like I need to learn about this jacot tool.

    Dave I noticed that in the Hampden book.... Which just confused me even more, since they don't even list .16! I kept doubting myself measuring .16, that's why I tried the .15s, and waited till I had three examples to post a help me here! Haha
     
  9. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Can't a 15 hole jewel be bored out to 16?

    Archie Perkins in the 2nd volume of his Antique Watch Restoration series, gets into making/modifying jewels courtesy of diamond coated tooling & powdered diamond for fine finishing.

    Or is this a case of it sounds good in theory but in practice it's another thing?
     
  10. Dave Coatsworth

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    I would tend to think it would be easier to reduce the pivot on the staff.
     
  11. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Rick,

    From your original post it sounds like you want to do this correctly and the watch is uncommon (I only pay attention to Hamiltons). I take it you cannot find a donor movt (first choice).

    It is an error to reduce the pivots on a staff, let alone one pivot. Reducing pivots causes problems when the staff needs to be replaced. Reducing one pivot causes timing problems that cannot be overcome.

    Ok, I looked at the service offered at clean time. I would avoid a friction jewel here at all costs if the watch is important.

    I do have Seitz jewels that size and I may have some unset balance jewels that size. Email me through my website. I do not pay much attention to PMs.
     
  12. Dave Coatsworth

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    Can you elaborate, Dewey? As the staff is the part that does not conform to factory specs in this case, it seems the obvious part to fix. If done right, I'm not seeing what problems this could cause when replacing the staff later . Seems to me to be a better fix than using a non-original Seitz jewel. If he does this, it will frustrate the next person who replaces the staff as they will not find a .16 pivot staff and will end up having to swap the jewels out.

    Perhaps the best fix is to get a 14 pivot #1720 staff and re-staff.
     
  13. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Dave,

    Thanks.

    If the staff is wrong, then there are other things that should be attended to. By all means, the correct approach would be to fit the correct staff and correct jewels.

    The problem with reducing one pivot is the dial up and dial down rates will be unequal not to mention the fun faced by the next guy who tries to figure out why the new staff fits one jewel and not the other.

    Rick has not contacted me so I am guessing he is mulling his options. But your last post would be the best answer.
     
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  14. Rick Hufnagel

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    Dewey, I apologize for not contacting you yet, you are correct about me trying to figure options out, and I greatly appreciate your reply and offer! I had thought that changing one side of the staff would effect timekeeping. Forgive my analogy, but it would be like having two different size tires on your car, one revolution is two different distances.

    I was looking at staffs about an hour ago and wondering if that is the best route. Plus on a better note, I can accomplish that task myself.

    It seems that would be the best way to keep it original, and make it functional.

    It's not an uncommon watch, but it is in uncommonly good condition, in a nice original silver case.

    I really do appreciate all the great help here, thank you everyone.

    I think replacing the staff on the Hampden is the way to go.
    The new York, I'll have to look into trying to figure out part numbers and see if I can't find something that will work.
     
  15. Samie Smith

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    I agree with Dave I would replace the staff with a pivot that would match the jewels you have .
     
  16. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Rick,

    I think you are on the right track.
     
  17. Rick Hufnagel

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    This staff and jewel set was for a model 2, and since we are now absolutely certain I'm not going to find .16 jewels, and they're incorrect,I decided to restaff the Hampden in question last night. It's running like a top, with a fresh service and new alloy mainspring. I have to adjust the beat a wee bit, but I was yawning and cross eyed by the time I got to that point so it was time to go to bed.

    I didn't realize it untill yesterday, but as far as I can tell all these grades from early Hampden basically take the same staff.

    Thanks for all the help on this one everyone. Sometimes trying to save the parts there just isn't realistic, I've learned quite allot from this thread! Finding a .16 pivot from now on... I'll have a plan of attack. I know it's not listed, but three movements in a row makes it a pretty common thing to find I'd say, unless I'm just that unlucky, haha

    Here it is running, I couldn't resist snapping some pictures last night. And to think, this things been sitting forever in pieces. I love this forum!

    IMG_20190608_225613426.jpg
     
  18. Chris Radek

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    Yay it's beautiful!
     
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  19. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
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    Don't you just love it when things come together . :)
     
  20. kevin h

    kevin h Registered User

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    #20 kevin h, Jun 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
    You MUST GET a jacot tool , MUST must must , I have found the staffs are rough to start with , place the balance on the jacot tool and reduce the staff to the size needed ,then polish it , I use a agate slip to reduce it , and shape the end , there are numerous ways to finish polishing it , when done right you can put it in the plate and it will "spin forever " , check your positions up and down , and it is DONE ! I do this part first when fixing a watch . It will also save a ton of time waiting on jewels . The tool I got was 100 dollars , watch the little circle ends , most are broke including mine but only the small sizes , horia/steiner sells replacements for THEIR tool , but not needed to reduce a staff , but needed to shape the end. I have found this is the way to go , make the staff fit your jewels. If I am wrong on this please inform me
    Note : It will pay for itself fairly quickly by not having to buy jewels and saving a staff that had a littlle damage from a bad jewel or run dry , also that sluggish watch may just need polishing !
    20190611_185452.jpg 20190611_185530.jpg 20190611_185409.jpg
     
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  21. Rick Hufnagel

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    I looked at a few online, but the problem is, I have to learn what I'm looking at before I go just purchasing one. It's time to do some research and reading!

    Thanks for the pictures!
     
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  22. kevin h

    kevin h Registered User

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    Your right Rick , a later one marked steiner or Horia is one thing to look for , pic one that I posted shows a broken "circle thingy" that the staff butts up against so you can" work" the end of the staff , shorten or shape it , these are under caps on the shaft and most are not shown because they are broken . It should be complete with a tool to measure the staff , I use a slide caliper instead . the shaft that the other end fits in , some sets have 2 sizes 1 for watches and 1 for clocks I believe , knowing what I know now I would buy a good one
     

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