Help date Gustav Becker

[LeanMFG]

 

[Andy Dervan]

Hello,

Legitimate Gustav Becker clock movements have trademark and serial number. If you do some searches online you should be able to find some websites that have serial numbers lists vs. manufacture date so you could date your clock.

Andy Dervan

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Interestingly, the movement seems to have the logo found on Gustav Becker movements made at their Freiburg, Silesia factory, but also what appears to be a serial number. From he post quoted below, there should be no serial number. Perhaps John Hubby, our resident expert on GB clocks can help us out on this. (BTW, this message board is the website for learning about GB clocks and dating.)

Jevon, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting your GB spring regulator clock. Kurt and Steven have already provided some useful information, basically showing that the movement in your clock is one of the GB "Amerikaner" style designs. These movements made at the Freiburg, Silesia factory did not have serial numbers. The "SILESIA" stamp below the GB anchor logo indicates this is one of their better quality examples, in this instance having solid cut pinions instead of lantern pinions.

These movements were first introduced in 1906 and utilized from that time to May 1925 with the SILESIA stamp. After May 1925 that stamp was no longer used however by that time they were using letters to designate the quality and features of the movements. For example, if it had lantern pinions, the letter "H" was used. That is an abbreviation for "Hohltrieben" or lantern pinions in German. The letter "R" was used for rack strike, in German "Reschen".

The more precise dating of these clocks then relies on other features, such as the pendulum hanger. The hanger is what the pendulum is attached to, and for most GB clocks the bottom end has a trapezoidal shaped clasp that holds a similarly shaped solid piece on the upper end of the pendulum rod. This design was patented about 1892 by itself, then incorporated in a beat setting design that was patented in 1898. The first patent was a D.R.P. type that was valid for 15 years thus could be found in 1907. This has been confirmed by actual examples, and although the design was used until the GB factory closed at the end of 1932 no "D.R.P." stamp has been found after 1907. Your clock does not have the stamp so the earliest date of manufacture would be 1908.

The next thing to observe is the case design. Your clock has the same basic case as model No. 3250 as illustrated in a 1911 GB catalog for the French market:
The only real difference is that your clock is fitted with a different headpiece; note that even the gong base shown in the illustration is identical to yours. That indicates it would have been sold with a slightly different model number such as 3251. I also see that the bottom center finial is missing, you can use the design of the one shown in the illustration as being accurate for your clock and see what you can find as a replacement. I can't tell from the illustration, but many of these were half-finials, being a complete large one sawn in half lengthwise.

This case design does not appear in the 1909 or 1912 catalogs that we have available, however GB usually sold a given case design for a few years but the particular style had fallen out of favor by 1913-14. From this information we can place your clock being made between about 1908 and 1913.

The remaining identifier is the GB logo on the dial. Although your photo isn't clear, the general shape of the logo can be seen. It will be appreciated if you could post a good close-up photo of the dial logo for confirmation. If I am correct on that particular design, it has thus far been documented only on clocks made in 1910 and 1911. I would use that as the actual age of your clock.

 

[John Hubby]

Hello,

Legitimate Gustav Becker clock movements have trademark and serial number. If you do some searches online you should be able to find some websites that have serial numbers lists vs. manufacture date so you could date your clock.

Andy Dervan

Andy, thanks for your interest and response to LeanMFG. However, in future it will be appreciated if you would refer our users to THIS POST which contains the most comprehensive and accurate set of dating information for GB clocks yet published.

The information generally available on the Internet is for the most part copied from Karl Kochmann's "The Gustav Becker Story", which includes deting info ONLY for clocks made in Freiburg, and that information is accurate only for the period 1850-1900. Karl had factory records from Freiburg for that period, his dating from 1900-1925 was based on only four examples for which sales receipts show the dates. Unfortunately those dates are grossly inaccurate. Finally, Karl had no information (nor did any other researcher) about clocks made in Braunau, until I published the linked post referenced here.

 

[John Hubby]

Interestingly, the movement seems to have the logo found on Gustav Becker movements made at their Freiburg, Silesia factory, but also what appears to be a serial number. From he post quoted below, there should be no serial number. Perhaps John Hubby, our resident expert on GB clocks can help us out on this. (BTW, this message board is the website for learning about GB clocks and dating.)

Steven, thanks for posting the message I wrote regarding the Amerikaner clocks made and finished in Freiburg. What is missing from that note is that a large number (perhaps 70,000) Amerikaner type movements were finished in the GB Braunau, Bohemia factory. Those clocks all have a serial number, whereas the ones finished in Freiburg do not as I pointed out in my earlier note. In addition, most of the movements finished in Braunau were of a higher quality than any that were made in Freiburg as I will describe in the following summary regarding the Braunau "Amerikaners".

The Braunau "Amerikaners"

1) Two production periods have been documented as follows:
>> First was from early 1913 through the 3rd quarter that year, inclusive of the serial numbers 623001 to 649000. These appear to have been made in one run of about 27,000 clocks.
>> Second was from mid-1920 to mid-1925, inclusive of the serial numbers 860001 to 922000. Other types of clocks were made during this period; it is estimated the Amerikaner versions represented a total of 40-50,000 clocks. More data will be needed to firm up these numbers.

2) All movements are stamped with the large fancy GB Anchor logo and the word "SILESIA" in a curve underneath, first used at the Freiburg factory in 1906 when the Amerikaner style movements were first introduced by GB.

3) All movements have solid back plates and solid cut pinions.

4) The initial production for Braunau from serial number 623001 have strip pallets. Starting about serial number 629001 and later most if not all movements have adjustable pallet Graham deadbeat escapements. I would expect that LeanMFG's movement has strip pallets, however a photo of the top of the movement will show what type of excitement is installed.

5) Overall the Braunau movements were installed in higher quality cases than found for the same periods in Freiburg production. This is in line with other clock types made at Braunau, it is evident that GB production in Braunau focused on high end clocks.

It is believed these movements were made in Freiburg where they were stamped with the GB "SILESIA" logo, then finished at the Braunau factory where a serial number from the Braunau series was added. Early production (1913) did not include a pendulum length stamp on the back plate, note that LeanMFG's movement is blank other than the logo and serial number. Later movements starting about serial number 642000 are stamped with a pendulum length. The dating of actual clocks has been confirmed by way of dated presentation inscriptions, repair dates, catalogs, and trade publications and articles.

My data show that LeanMFG's clock was made about March-April 1913 based on the movement serial number. As mentioned above, a photo of the top of the movement will be appreciated to confirm construction details. A photo of the full front of the clock will also be appreciated.

 

[Walt Wallgren]

HI John,

Just to clarify for my own edification, solid plates with serial numbers are from Braunau and those without serial numbers are from Freiburg. How do the cut out plates, front and back, fit into the picture?

Thanks,
Walt

 

[John Hubby]

HI John,

Just to clarify for my own edification, solid plates with serial numbers are from Braunau and those without serial numbers are from Freiburg. How do the cut out plates, front and back, fit into the picture?

Thanks, Walt

Hi Walt, good question. Your observation is correct, if there is no serial number the movement was almost certainly made for a Freiburg clock. Regarding the solid back plate, all Braunau movements have this feature but as you noted they were also found on a number of Freiburg clocks, especially when found in an upmarket table model or bracket model case where the movement can be seen when the back is opened.

The movements with open plates both front and back have been found only with Freiburg clocks, in particular wall clocks where the back of the movement isn't seen except by clock repair persons. Some Freiburg movements have half-open back plates, with the time train solid plate and the strike train open. I have no idea why this was done.

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Thanks, John,

I had a Silesia free swinger a couple of years ago with cut out plates. It had a single straight rod for the strike with a GB logo on the block. "made in Germany" in a script font on the dial along with a name and, I guess, city. The writing looked like the original ink was washed away and just a stain from what was once there is all that remained. It was a nice clock and in some ways I a little sad I sold it.

Walt

 

[LeanMFG]

Here's a photo of the case. Will take a photo of the movement tomorrow. thanks for the feed back.

 

[vmaamd]

Help date Gustav Becker

 

[vmaamd]

how could look at the original crown?
that means the letter "S"

 

[varus]

Hello,

The two movements stamped with the GB "SILESIA" logo and serial number.
Have adjustable pallet Graham deadbeat escapements.

Vlad.