Help anniversary

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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Hey guys can you help me please. I can’t seem to keep this one running the weight slows and stops. It works when the momentum is there. I read about the spring getting gooped up so I took that out. I tried adjusting the torsion spring back and forth and side to side. The torsion spring seems to have a sport where it may have been bent. Could this be my problem? Thanks for any help you could give.

76FBAF12-D248-4115-8DDA-8A8BF9240303.jpeg 2C9C9A93-6FB1-45D3-AFE8-A9D5AAC5B523.jpeg
 

disciple_dan

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It looks a little kinked right above the fork where it goes into the block. That might cause trouble if it is. Is the spring twisted even at rest?
 

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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It looks a little kinked right above the fork where it goes into the block. That might cause trouble if it is. Is the spring twisted even at rest?
It seemed twisted when I got it. At rest it does have a twist. When the weight is off and you lay it flat it’s not straight.
 

disciple_dan

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The springs are really cheap. It would worth it to try a new one. Do you have the Horolover book?
 

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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The springs are really cheap. It would worth it to try a new one. Do you have the Horolover book?
I’ve been watching out for a used one but did not get one yet. Last anniversary I bought for a dollar and the spring cost me 32. I hope one for this isn’t that expensive. I’ll check Saturday. Merits is only 12 miles for me. Thanks
 

Willie X

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Feb 9, 2008
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Small defects, below the fork, won't have much effect. Any defect, above the fork, can cause problems.

The pivot holes, pinions, and wheel teeth are more likely to be "gooped up" than the mainspring. People just love to spray, or repeatedly over-oil, these clocks with various mystical oil products. These dry up over time and cause big trouble. Good magnication is needed to see what's goin on there. Hint, the oil always gravitates to one area at the bottom of each wheel and pinion.

Willie X
 
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Schatznut

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Willie is right - the common thread is that the old oil and any additional "mystery potions" turn to gunk over time and clog up the whole works. It needs to be spotlessly clean from the mainspring all the way through to the fork - especially the pivots. Once you've taken care of that, come back and we'll help you diagnose any remaining problems like kinks in the torsion spring. Just replace it as a matter of principle - the springs are dirt cheap compared to any other parts.
 

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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Willie is right - the common thread is that the old oil and any additional "mystery potions" turn to gunk over time and clog up the whole works. It needs to be spotlessly clean from the mainspring all the way through to the fork - especially the pivots. Once you've taken care of that, come back and we'll help you diagnose any remaining problems like kinks in the torsion spring. Just replace it as a matter of principle - the springs are dirt cheap compared to any other parts.
Well back to the drawing board. I did have it apart and it looked clean but I understand what you guys are saying. I did run it without the crutch in place and it seemed fine. Assumptions will get you in trouble all the time. Back apart and a thorough cleaning. I let ya know. Thanks
 

Schatznut

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Well back to the drawing board. I did have it apart and it looked clean but I understand what you guys are saying. I did run it without the crutch in place and it seemed fine. Assumptions will get you in trouble all the time. Back apart and a thorough cleaning. I let ya know. Thanks
To get a sense of how clean it is, peg the pivot holes in the plates with toothpicks until they don't show any signs of dirt and debris. If you have the ability to do so, you may want to polish the pivots on the wheel arbors. I use a small polishing wheel on a Dremel tool secured to a bench vise and plain old car polish. If you can get the pivots to where they positively shine and then clean them really well with solvent, you're on your way to making it a happy little clock.
 

tracerjack

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The mainspring is often clean on these, but dry. Mainspring cleaning is the first thing I do. Occasionally, I find one filled with green gunk. So, either way, mainspring needs to be cleaned and oiled. Miniature movements are also very low powered and need all that you can get out of it.
 

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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The mainspring is often clean on these, but dry. Mainspring cleaning is the first thing I do. Occasionally, I find one filled with green gunk. So, either way, mainspring needs to be cleaned and oiled. Miniature movements are also very low powered and need all that you can get out of it.
Okay I cleaned and polished everything. I took the spring out and cleaned it and put a light coat of oil on it. I assembled it with out the spring to make sure everything moves freely. I hung the torsion spring and spun the weight without the crutch in and that seems to go the distance back and forth. I then put the spring back in and made sure the spring powered the movement. When I put the crutch back in I tried to move it back and forth by flipping it back and forth seems to work. When I put the fork in the crutch the initial energy works but then it will slow and not have enough momentum to continue on. I tried to move the top piece back and forth side to side. I just can’t seem to get the right sweet spot. I believe my problem is just a slight adjustment. Any ideas? Thanks for help.
 

tracerjack

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It seems like there is a fine line with miniature movements between working and not working, so it can be frustrating trying to find that sweet spot. Have you done the click test? It will check how well power is getting to the Escape Wheel. More than two clicks will provide initial power, but won’t keep it running. Assemble the movement without the verge. The EW should start spinning with 1 or 2 clicks of the ratchet once you have some tension on the mainspring. I like to let the mainspring barrel go a full rotation to make sure all the teeth of the barrel mesh well. Had one miniature in which all the barrel teeth looked good, but after rotating the barrel, one would stick. If the click test goes well, then next step is to check the locks and drops.
 

Wayne A

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Power is low on these Schatz 53's to begin with so minimizing power loss is important. A good/bad thing the 53 has is the adjustable jeweled suspension bracket and fixed pallets. Because the suspension bracket is adjustable you can assemble it in a position it will not run although there is a good size area it will run, there's also a small spot it runs better, little fiddly to get it there. Video of the escapement being operated by hand would be helpful to for us to see if there's a problem.
 

Schatznut

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Power is low on these Schatz 53's to begin with so minimizing power loss is important. A good/bad thing the 53 has is the adjustable jeweled suspension bracket and fixed pallets. Because the suspension bracket is adjustable you can assemble it in a position it will not run although there is a good size area it will run, there's also a small spot it runs better, little fiddly to get it there. Video of the escapement being operated by hand would be helpful to for us to see if there's a problem.
The good thing the small Schatz movements is that you can build up the whole clock but leave off the anchor and saddle. If you can wind the mainspring no more than one or two clicks and have the mechanism start moving on its own, you'll know you've conquered any friction or drag in the movement. If it takes more than three clicks or so, as you say, back to the drawing board. If that's the case, starting at the escapement wheel, use a small stylus like an X-acto knife and with very light pressure see if you can move the wheel back and forth. If yes, then the friction is down further in the movement. When you get to the first wheel that you can't move this way, it's bound up with the next wheel down the train.

If it comes to life on a click or two, then as Wayne suggests, you've run into the bad thing about this movement. Adjusting the saddle can be a really vexing exercise but at least you won't be tempted to adjust the pallets and screw them up because you *can't* adjust the pallets.
 

KurtinSA

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I've been "admonished" that just trying the 1-2 click test is not as fool proof as it may seem. If there is significant wear in the pivot holes, or even a little bit, the issues created by this won't show up until you have much more power on the train. Just one or two clicks doesn't sufficiently load the wheels/arbors enough to see if that's a problem. When checking the meshing of each pair of arbors as I'm assessing my cleaning efforts, I try to use a finger to put a little load on the first arbor of the pair, pushing towards the second arbor. I suppose if the issue were noticeable, that might create a depthing problem with the next arbor up. One can also visually inspect the arbors that poke through the plates...take all the power off the train and use a finger to move one or more wheels back and forth watching what happens with the end of the arbors in the pivot holes. If some jump back and forth, might be in the market for bushing the plate.

Kurt
 

Schatznut

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I've been "admonished" that just trying the 1-2 click test is not as fool proof as it may seem. If there is significant wear in the pivot holes, or even a little bit, the issues created by this won't show up until you have much more power on the train. Just one or two clicks doesn't sufficiently load the wheels/arbors enough to see if that's a problem. When checking the meshing of each pair of arbors as I'm assessing my cleaning efforts, I try to use a finger to put a little load on the first arbor of the pair, pushing towards the second arbor. I suppose if the issue were noticeable, that might create a depthing problem with the next arbor up. One can also visually inspect the arbors that poke through the plates...take all the power off the train and use a finger to move one or more wheels back and forth watching what happens with the end of the arbors in the pivot holes. If some jump back and forth, might be in the market for bushing the plate.

Kurt
Agreed there is no one single be-all and end-all test for clocks; however this one has served me well to locate where a problem is. But to your point, Kurt, it does not really help determine what that problem is - a burr, a bent pivot or arbor; a nicked edge on a tooth, pivot wear, corrosion, gunk - the list is large.

The "rocking test" you mention is an excellent technique for finding worn pivots and relational problems between gears and pinions.

Maybe I've just been fortunate, but of the many 400-day and 1000-day clocks I've overhauled, I've never come across one that was a candidate for a bushing. That excludes, of course, a couple that were so badly corroded or damaged there was no point to do any more than to see if anything could be salvaged from them. I can't say that for cuckoo clocks or movements with the dreaded nickle-plated pivots, some of which have needed multiple bushings and a couple that were so badly worn as to be beyond hope.
 

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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Agreed there is no one single be-all and end-all test for clocks; however this one has served me well to locate where a problem is. But to your point, Kurt, it does not really help determine what that problem is - a burr, a bent pivot or arbor; a nicked edge on a tooth, pivot wear, corrosion, gunk - the list is large.

The "rocking test" you mention is an excellent technique for finding worn pivots and relational problems between gears and pinions.

Maybe I've just been fortunate, but of the many 400-day and 1000-day clocks I've overhauled, I've never come across one that was a candidate for a bushing. That excludes, of course, a couple that were so badly corroded or damaged there was no point to do any more than to see if anything could be salvaged from them. I can't say that for cuckoo clocks or movements with the dreaded nickle-plated pivots, some of which have needed multiple bushings and a couple that were so badly worn as to be beyond hope.
Okay I hope you can see the video it runs and then slowly comes to a halt The fork seems to jump. Could it be too tight? I’m about ready to more on to the next. But I hate admitting defeat. Now I know why some people say they don’t mess with these. Desperate for help please. I could load the mov file so I hop these pictures help. Thanks

E815CE78-3661-4911-97F8-7847299979A8.jpeg 12525C4A-9FDF-45CC-9419-7D931721B65A.jpeg
 

Ken M

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Don't give up, you'll get it eventually. The satisfaction you get is worth all the frustration. Also, you can upload videos to YouTube, it's free.
 

Schatznut

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Don't give up, you'll get it eventually. The satisfaction you get is worth all the frustration. Also, you can upload videos to YouTube, it's free.
+1 to everything Ken says. Don't give up now! If you can get the video onto YouTube, that will help us help you.
 

Wayne A

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Watching the video is tough for me do with the shaking and focus, best to block the camera up on something. Anyway the beat looks off, more swing on one side than the other.
Was trying to determine if the anchors position was correct and it looks like its not as good as it could be but get the beat set first. If the beat is not enough to get it going adjusting the anchor position by moving the suspension bracket would be next.
Getting this set is best done without the suspension installed and operate the anchor by hand. While watching the pin try to get the drops to happen at the same distance from pin top center on each side. With the fixed pallets I'm never quite happy with how it ends up but they will run.

Wayne
 

tracerjack

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I also saw imbalance. The entrance side would lock and then continue to slide as it should before reversing and releasing the tooth, while the exit side looked like it locked, then immediately reversed to release the tooth. It was difficult to tell for sure with the focus not crystal clear.
 

Phil G4SPZ

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I think the fork may be slightly too tight, causing the pin to bind on the right-hand extremity of its travel. The pin itself and the inner edges of the fork tines should be as smooth and polished as you can make them.

When adjusting the beat, remember that it takes only microscopic movements of the upper saddle to make a significant change to the beat. Start by only giving a small rotation to the pendulum, just enough to allow the escape wheel teeth to drop off both pallets. You are trying to achieve an equal amount of over-swing after the entry and exit pallets have released a tooth. Twist the saddle a tiny amount towards the smaller overswing. Then re-start the pendulum and check the effect.

Phil
 

90 Flhs

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Dec 26, 2020
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I think the fork may be slightly too tight, causing the pin to bind on the right-hand extremity of its travel. The pin itself and the inner edges of the fork tines should be as smooth and polished as you can make them.

When adjusting the beat, remember that it takes only microscopic movements of the upper saddle to make a significant change to the beat. Start by only giving a small rotation to the pendulum, just enough to allow the escape wheel teeth to drop off both pallets. You are trying to achieve an equal amount of over-swing after the entry and exit pallets have released a tooth. Twist the saddle a tiny amount towards the smaller overswing. Then re-start the pendulum and check the effect.

Phil
Thanks Phil sorry I didn’t respond sooner but I got frustrated and put it on the back burner. My new frustration is a German Westminster chime. When and if I get this one back together and working I hope. I’ll get back on the anniversary. Still learning and glad these are my clocks and not customers I look at it this way it’s all productive fun keeps the mind sharp. I think. LOL
 

marylander

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There are two screw to fix the upper suspension block bracket on the back plate. This bracket is also worked as acentric adjustment for the anchor pivot. You need to adjust it correctly to make the clock work.
Generally, you need to loosely tighten one of the screw and more the bracket to make the anchor pallet drop correctly. It take sometime to do the adjustment.
Ming
 

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