Hayter of Bath, 12" wooden dialled drop dial.

[novicetimekeeper]

I was the under bidder on this clock last year. I had intended to bid more after I received pictures but I didn't realise when they turned up it was the same day as the auction.

Then it appeared again in an auction held this week. the case had been polished the movement serviced and new gut line installed.

I thought I would have another go and I bought it today for about what I would have increased my bid to last year but now it has had the work done. Plus they left the dial alone which is a huge plus.

I hope to get it next week. These pictures are by kind permission of the original auction house.

I only have one date for Mr Hayter in Bath of 1812, which is a bit early and according to Bellchambers he was both in Bristol and Bath, the give a date for 1819 in Bristol. There they have him as W Hayter. I would have thought it was more like the right date, I would have thought 1820s.

 

[Chris Radano]

Nice clock, and rare movement. I suppose the movements for wood dials were a little bit light? The movement on your Muston clock is a monstrous sized movement.
Looks like you got lot of pics, so hopefully no bad surprises. I see the dial glass has been re-puttied. I've seen where people use silicone to re-putty the glass which is infuriating, and a total turn-off.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I think this is plaster of paris which is what it should be. There were not many pics of the clock in the auction today.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

There is a J Hayter Bath watchmaker owed money in this insolvency case of a Mr Oram.

Names of some Brass Foundries supplying watchmakers there too. No idea of date.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/16970/page/2573/data.pdf

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Lot 1028 in this auction with an excellent biography by Leigh would point to John Junior I think.

https://www.bhandl.co.uk/sales/assets/FS/2017/01/24/FS240117-works-of-art.pdf

 

[Chris Radano]

I would make room for lots 1019 and 1020.
Interesting bio. Explains the 1812 date.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

1020 is with a dealer now for rather more. I haven't seen 1019 come up, may be with a collector.

Yes I agree I think it explains the 1812, I think this is around 1820 though the hands may be the ones Ron Rose puts as 1805/10

 

[Chris Radano]

There have been several Vulliamy drop dials sold similar to lot 1019.

I mentioned the movement in this clock is rare. I did find a similar movement in an example by James Condliff:

Mahogany Drop Dial Wall Clock, Condliff Of Liverpool

A fine Regency mahogany wall clock dated c.1820, by a highly regarded maker, with many features which set it apart as an individual and very elegant design.

antiques-atlas.com

Which is a very fine clock. I reckon Condliff must have been in his late 20s - early 30s when this clock was manufactured. It's amazing what clockmakers did at such young ages, at least in my opinion.
But it also gives an idea of another clock which is contemporary to yours.

 

[Uhralt]

Then it appeared again in an auction held this week. the case had been polished the movement serviced and new gut line installed.

A very nice clock! I think they replaced the gut with a metal cable. Do you intend to replace it with gut?

Uhralt

 

[novicetimekeeper]

A very nice clock! I think they replaced the gut with a metal cable. Do you intend to replace it with gut?

Uhralt

No these are the pics from the first auction last year, the buyer replaced the nasty metal cable with gut.

 

[Uhralt]

No these are the pics from the first auction last year, the buyer replaced the nasty metal cable with gut.

Ahh, good for you!

Uhralt

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Ahh, good for you!

Uhralt

I'm very lucky, whoever bought it at the first auction not so lucky.

This is my third wooden dial too, now I have drum, dial, and drop dial, and 10",12" and 13". Also dial painted directly on surround and separate wooden dial screwed through surround. I think I have pretty much got the wooden dial options covered.

 

[Uhralt]

I'm very lucky, whoever bought it at the first auction not so lucky.

This is my third wooden dial too, now I have drum, dial, and drop dial, and 10",12" and 13". Also dial painted directly on surround and separate wooden dial screwed through surround. I think I have pretty much got the wooden dial options covered.

That sounds exciting! Do you also have one with the double dial (front and back)?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

That sounds exciting! Do you also have one with the double dial (front and back)?

That's one of the few dial clock styles I would never have, we live in a small bungalow with 8 foot ceilings, nowhere to display it.

 

[jmclaugh]

Another nice one. Loomes has the following. two with the name Hayter, no first name for either, one at Bath 1819, the other at Wells early 19th C, John Hayter Bristol 1812-19 and John 'Junior' Hayter Wells early 19th C.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I think from what I have found that it is likely to be John Junior.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

This turned up today, very pleased with it. Very heavy concave brass bezel, untouched wooden dial, in the style where the surround and dial are one piece and the dial is given a shallow convex form. Working lock on the bezel, no lock on the bottom door which has been filled when the lock was removed. Pendulum has an old repair. Will take more pics

 

[daveR]

Ah, once again it seems you have the wooden dial market covered ! A very nice piecethough, and much less common for me particularly is the concave form bezel. May it arrive soon!
David

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Oh it arrived yesterday Dave. The concave bezel was the first style of brass bezel used, following on from wooden bezels. This is a particularly heavy cast bezel. I have five clocks with concave bezels from 1790s to about 1820. It is my favourite style, even more than wood I think which necessarily has to be rather chunky.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

One thing I had not picked up from the pictures is that it doesn't have one falseplate but two. One for the top two dial feet, one for the bottom two.They have been skilfully set into the back of the dial/surround and there is also a very neat section cut out for the motion work. It also has a working lock in the bezel which is pretty unusual as they are often missing on these concave bezels. Later bezels the lock is in the surround.

 

[Micam100]

One thing I had not picked up from the pictures is that it doesn't have one falseplate but two. One for the top two dial feet, one for the bottom two.They have been skilfully set into the back of the dial/surround...

Interesting, I’d like to see some photos of that, if possible, when you post your own pictures.

Michael

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Interesting, I’d like to see some photos of that, if possible, when you post your own pictures.

Michael

here you go. It is up on the wall now too, after a bit of clock shuffling.

 

[Mike Phelan]

A typical English Dial clock from where I was born!

 

[Micam100]

here you go...

Very neatly done, three screws each and set into the back of the dial. I like the dial, perfect, displaying its age and carrying it off well.

Michael

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Very neatly done, three screws each and set into the back of the dial. I like the dial, perfect, displaying its age and carrying it off well.

Michael

I agree, it is very neat, the cutout for the cock on the motion work too. Sometimes it looks like somebody chewed holes in the wood but all of this was well done. The dial is just perfect as you say, I was very lucky the guy who beat me the first time didn't touch it. the only thing I lost out on between auctions was it lost the winding key.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I'm not a huge fan of ears, but then I don't usually go for drop dials, certainly not full size ones. I only have one clock with them and that is a 10".

I have noticed these though. Did this clock have ears?

 

[Chris Radano]

I would say yes it did have ears. Due to the visible vertical line of dirt.
We had conversations about ears, I didn't suggest this one had ears because to me it is an early drop dial of a wood dial type, and I'm not used to seeing them.
Perhaps this clock's price was a little affected, then. In my opinion it doesn't need the ears (your opinion, too).

A fine and early, English Drop-dial wall clock with side-winding fusee movement, wooden dial and Thwaites movement. Circa 1802.

A fine and early, English Drop-dial wall clock with side-winding fusee movement, wooden dial and Thwaites movement. Circa 1802.

www.bournemouthclocks.co.uk

Fusee Drop Dial By Kerby Of Bristol

A fine, 8 day, English Fusee wall clock in a quality mahogany case with locking bottom door and (unusually) two sliding side doors. 12” convex dial with original dial paint, cast bezel and matching blued, steel, spade hands.

www.antiques-atlas.com

This Kirby clock has unusual ears, I think a little later than Hayter.

Early Mahogany Drop Dial Wall Clock - Yonge And Son , London | 471224 | Sellingantiques.co.uk

Declaration: Early Mahogany Drop Dial Wall Clock - Yonge And Son , London has been declared an antique and was approved for sale on sellingantiques.co.uk.

www.sellingantiques.co.uk

If Hayter had side ears, I imagine because of his age the ears looked similar to those found on tavern clocks (above links).

Funny this came up now, I bought a clock (you have now) that I knew was missing ears. Being about 10 years younger, my clock probably had the fan type that would have been appropriate with it's brass inlaid trunk.

 

[daveR]

I thinkI am with Chris here, and for pretty much the same reason. Presumably someone thought the same as you though Nick, and removed them.
I am with you as well, i am not the greatest fan of ears. Some areOK, others just not. Your clock will be better without.

 

[Chris Radano]

Just a thought.....
If anyone in your circle has a similar old drop dial with the correct style of ears, maybe you can get a tracing. Then have your case maker cut a pair for Hayter.
It may add substantial value to you clock, to the tune of 75-100% increase.
We recently saw a Dwerrihouse & Carter wood dial sell at an auction, that was a larger clock than Hayter but also much more expensive. Probably the two clocks had similar styles of ears, though.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

That Yonge is lovely.

On your clock you have patches a different colour, so I assume they were glued on, this seems to have holes for screws.

I think on my 10" the ears are glued on. I'll ask Scott the cabinet maker how they used to be fixed.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

I'm not a huge fan of ears, but then I don't usually go for drop dials, certainly not full size ones. I only have one clock with them and that is a 10".

I have noticed these though. Did this clock have ears?

View attachment 645441 View attachment 645442

Clearly "witness marks" of something once having been present. Given the type of clock and the location of the witness marks, most likely dial clock "ears".

Thin, probably attached with glue, possibly reinforced with a small glue block(s) though in the pix, don't see evidence of the latter. Like scrolls, skirts, feet, etc. on clocks and furniture as well, vulnerable to loss or damage. I suggest something happened to those vulnerable parts, either loss or damage. Sometimes when the latter occurs, they're just removed which wouldn't be difficult.

If the decision is made to replace them, then one needs to come up with ones that would be appropriate for the "period" and case style. Looking at comparable clocks known to have retained their ORIGINAL ears would be helpful. A good cabinet maker can also provide guidance based upon his/her experience. Whatever is selected will basically be an educated guess but the goal is to make a good and appropriate one. I have seen much $$ (or pounds) spent on expensive case, tablet and dial restoration that though sometimes done to a high standard by a professional was just plain wrong and money not well spent.

By the way, GREAT clock! Really think it was a "swell" purchase! Good things come to those who wait?

RM

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Cabinet maker is calling in today on his way back from a client so I can show him. He was going to collect part of my barometer but I can't get it off. He may end up taking the bottom door of this away and refitting the lock.

I do wish people would stop removing locks and filling in the holes, just fit another lock or leave the old one bust.

 

[P.Hageman]

Once again, a very nice clock indeed! Love those wooden dial clocks, but they are very hard to find! Congratulations Nick.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I'm very lucky to have three, and all different styles!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Oh and the cabinet maker liked it. He has taken the bottom door away to refit a lock.