Have you heard the Word??

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by TEACLOCKS, Apr 1, 2020.

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  1. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Well the word is---- KIENINGER is done.
    Out of business.
    No more movements.
    Mark says he has a good supply.
    Back to rebuilding plated pivot movements.
     
  2. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    So, did H-M fold? Willie X
     
  3. Old Rivers

    Old Rivers Registered User
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    I am curious where you heard this?
    On Kieninger's and Howard Miller's web sites it looks like business as usual...

    Bill
     
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  4. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I would suspect that H-M may have gotten out of the movement making business ... or maybe just an internet rumor?

    H-M was in business, as of about three weeks ago. I know that for sure and that's all I know for sure.

    Willie X
     
  5. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    #5 POWERSTROKE, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
    At this point maybe an internet rumor....
     
  6. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Huh. Who'da thunk? Clock movements as scarce as toilet roll. Fascinating.

    Does this mean that the cost of clocks will escalate as well?
     
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  7. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    #7 POWERSTROKE, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
    It means that they’ll become a rarity eventually. Everything will need to be repaired in the future. All of them.
     
  8. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Never mind China will fill the cap with there quality movements :banghead::mallet:
     
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  9. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    What a little more ?
    Hubert Herr is closing there doors.
     
  10. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, in Mark Butterworth's latest email he mentioned both of those companies closing. He still has a good stock of Keniingers, but not Herr's.
     
  11. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Thats where I got the word.
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    How's Hermle holding up?
     
  13. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    #13 POWERSTROKE, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
    That’s crazy. Only a matter of time until they stop making all mechanicals.
     
  14. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    That should be a positive for Hermle and Regula, so maybe these closeings will allow them to hang on for longer.

    It's bad enough to see the big companies gobbling up the smaller ones. It's terrible to see a manufacturing plant close their doors completely, especially one that been around for a long time. Sad ...

    Willie X
     
  15. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    Just a rumor Funny how Howard Miller is closed during the virus, so no one can validate this.
     
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  16. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    Where did this info come from? I’ve scoured the internet and haven’t found any of this info available? I’m sure more folks than Butterworth have spare movements available, no?
     
  17. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    There is nothing in this Email that says anything about closing permanently. They are closed because of the virus only.

    Friends,

    A lot has happened in the last quarter. First, let me say both Butterworth and Hermle are open for shipping!! If you need to change a shipping address due to any shutdowns please make certain we know.

    There are no movement price increases for the 2nd quarter.

    Hubert Herr is closing, but we do have good stock on their movements.

    Kieninger, we just received word this morning, is closing. We built up good stock on those as well. The financial problems were the reason that it has taken a very long time to restock on a couple of items.
     
  18. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    This sheds a lot of light on the situation. Thanks R&A
     
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  19. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Closed for the virus, that's not news at all. Nearly everything is closed for the virus. Geeze! Willie X
     
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  20. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    #20 POWERSTROKE, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
    They’re not out of business ?They’re closing down temporarily?
     
  21. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Yes, seems likely but latest is that there is a small amount of hope that Kieninger will survive the bankruptcy. We will know more around the end of May :)
     
  22. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    "bankruptcy", "closed because of the flu", "out of business", "closed down temporarily". :screwball:

    Willie X
     
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  23. Thomas Sanguigni

    Thomas Sanguigni Registered User
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    On another site, Mark mentioned that the employees of Kieninger were trying an employee buyout.
     
  24. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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    For some clarification, Hubert Herr ownership is retiring and there are no buyers. They are also in a bankruptcy according to news from Germany. We have purchased around a years supply of their movements. Regarding Kieninger, they are in a bankruptcy as well. Many of the staff received dismissal letters a week ago, but I do not know the effective date those people will be gone. There is a glimmer of hope that an investor will still emerge. We will know more by the end of May at the latest. We have also bulked up on their movements.
     
  25. Thomas Sanguigni

    Thomas Sanguigni Registered User
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  26. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    Is there a link you can provide about Herr and Kieninger? I can’t find anything. Where is this info from?
     
  27. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    I wonder if Hermle could take over Kieninger - they took Urgos! Lets hope that it continues on!
     
  28. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    No link. The information is I from my involvement with the two companies as a distributor.
     
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  29. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    This post has created the assumption that these businesses are going out of business. Like many businesses that are temporarily closed during this virus. A bill has been passed to help out all that ask for help. So with that in mind, lets stop all the rumors and sit back and give it time. Howard Miller owns Kieninger . I don't think that Howard Miller is going to let this happen. Thus will take advantage of the package offered to them to pay employees and operation cost. Bankrupt I don't think so.
     
  30. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    In many parts of the world "bankruptcy" is the end of the line for a business but in Germany it is the start of an all out attempt (by the government) to restructure that business so it can continue. For those that don't know, Hermle went through this process about (18) years ago.

    It's strange to me that many people don't trust what a knowledgeable trustworthy person says anymore. They seem to be in disbelief until they go to some sketchy internet site to get their information. To me, this is way more frightening than the virus!!!

    Mark Butterworth knows more about the German clock producers than anyone. And I'm glad he gave us the "the word" about this situation. Thanks Mark

    Over and out, Willie
     
  31. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    what sketchy internet sight? There are 0 reports of any of this? I am personally asking for a link, because there is 0% information about Herr or Kieneger. With that being said, I’m sure there are many supply houses that have these movements in stock. All we are asking for is verification.
     
  32. Vernon

    Vernon Registered User
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    Refer to post 28, that is your direct link as it is maybe very new info.
     
  33. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    #33 POWERSTROKE, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
    I saw that. I find it hard to believe there is no evidence online on either company found going under. Maybe it’s my network service. please send me the links. Or maybe it’s a secret as of right now and the companies are trying to find buyers behind the scenes.
     
  34. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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  35. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    SORRY MARK
    Lloyd
     
  36. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    No worries at all. At the time of my original email, it was not clear at all there was any hope for Kieninger. Your note was reasonable. It is only recently that a possibility of investors coming forward
     
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  37. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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  38. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    So there is a possibility that Hermle has bought out Kieninger, not because they went bankrupt. But because of financial difficulties. Sad time for Howard Miller if this is true. I'm thinking it is true. I try to do my home work before I buy into a lot of things. I for one don't jump to conclusions. And all in all. From my understanding this was suppose to be kept quiet, for the time being. So much for that huh
     
  39. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Regardless of the financial condition of these firms it is my personal feeling that the days of real mechanical movements are numbered. My local furniture store is stocked with many Howard Miller clocks, but most of them are electronic.

    I have also seen a good many clocks with bogus mechanical movements--that is, they're quartz movements embellished with animated parts of die-cast or metal-plated plastic that move as the clock operates. Nobody much is likely to recognize that these are fake, nor would they particularly care. Nor would they prefer a clock that has to be fussed with--leveled, wound, cleaned periodically, and all the rest.

    Vast improvements in digital signal processing have rendered electronic chimes fairly indistinguishable from real mechanical chimes, and there are combinations of mechanical and electronic or amplified-mechanical chimes as well. (They've been around for years, but are occupying an increasing portion of the market.)

    Chris Nimon says that mechanical anniversary clocks have been gone for a few years now.

    None of this should affect most practitioners, who are principally occupied with the repair of existing movements where replacement is not an option.
     
  40. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    Sad times for clocks. I always knew that mechanicals were in their proverbial deathbed. I’ve recently seen in the past couple days the prices of movements and clocks skyrocket from where they were a week ago I’m certain auction sites.

    If Herr isn’t bought out, it’s going to be a comical situation with the millions of cuckoos out there that usually get the movements swapped out.
     
  41. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    Although the sale of mechanical finished clocks has been dismal, the sale of mechanical movements as replacements has been quite good. There are million of modern aging clocks in the US alone in which the movements will need a serious repair or replacement.
    Hubert Herr while missed was only a small fraction of the cuckoo movements. Regula has the large share in the marketplace
    I can say that Hermle definitely did.not buy Kieninger. Down the road maybe anything is possible
     
  42. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    Mr. Butterworth, can you source the plastic drive wheel that sits in front of the front plate for the one day herrs?
     
  43. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    It translates to: Kieninger Clocks files for bankruptcy.

    Uhralt
     
  44. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    Heard about this a few weeks ago from Timesavers but did not want to say anything in case the story changed. I never worked on any modern Kieninger movements but can appreciate their older clocks for being durable and well designed.
     
  45. Fabien Rheault

    Fabien Rheault New Member

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    Hello
    just got this email from Kieninger this morning: i have hidden the contact email and complete name of my contact at kieninger germany.



    ''Dear Fabien,

    maybe your heared that we are fighting for chapter 11.
    If we don’t find a new investor, Kieninger will be no more after June 30th.

    Unfortunately, these models are not available.
    No movements to make them.
    Very sorry.''


    Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With kind regards

    Christine S.

    Verkauf / Sales

    E-Mail XXXXX@Kieninger.com

    Tel. +49 (0)7424 883-113

    Fax +49 (0)7424 883-200

    Kieninger Uhrenfabrik GmbH

    Brunnenstraße 37 / D-78554 Aldingen

    RG: Stuttgart HRB 460557

    www.kieninger.com

    Kieninger
     
  46. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It might be a good investment for someone with deep pockets. I hope they find someone.
     
  47. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Well, tempus fugit. We'll repair the old ones, which will be historical treasures in ten decades. By then bushings will have been long abandoned long in favor of injected epoxy pivot treatments. Someone will be able to make 3-d printed plastic parts to replace the plastic parts.

    Even now you can't buy the older style Kieninger plastic cable guards--those clear plastic semi-rings that keep the cables from bird's-nesting. The newer ones don't fit older clocks, so I'll be making those out of PVC pipe or something.
     
  48. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    They’re going to stop making bushings?
     
  49. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Sorry: No, at least not in the foreseeable future. I'm sure bushings will be available forever.

    I regret to say that I made up I made up the "injected epoxy pivot treatment" without considering that people new to clock work read these posts, and for this I sincerely apologize, for it was a dumb mistake.

    The point I was trying to make was that just as our present bushing systems--KWM and Bergeon and Mr Butterworth's--date back to only 1960, it's quite reasonable to expect that one hundred years hence technology will have improved so that bushings will not be necessary at all in antique clocks.

    An improved system would require a fluid--not yet invented--which, upon injection into a worn pivot hole, would harden into a Teflon-like solid which would adhere to brass but not to steel as it cured. Since the steel remains free you'd only need to inject a tiny amount of the stuff into a badly-worn pivot and then, say, after exposure to ultra-violet light, it would harden and stay in the hole. No cutting of the plate is necessary.

    It's science fiction, which clearly does not belong in a clock repair forum. Even so, a look inside any industrial supplies catalog--say, Grainger in the US--yields hundreds of thread-lockers, gap-fillers, and retaining compounds.
     
  50. POWERSTROKE

    POWERSTROKE Registered User

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    Ahh. Tongue in cheek. Lol. It wouldn’t be hard to believe seeing these companies going under. Anyone have any information on Hubert Herr?
     

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