Hauck clock

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Nicko, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    S/n 36674, plate 1607, 3 ball pendulum no26, Suspension Horolovar .0038" (.097mm).

    It has a very small pendulum rotation.
    Anticlockwise rotation beat at 30º, overswing to 60º
    Clockwise rotation beat at 45 overswing to 90º.

    The pallets contact the EW teeth right on the corner of the lock face & the impulse face.
    Looses 1 hour in 12.

    What to do to increase swing and have the pallets contact further up on.
    The timekeeping is way out, different suspension maybe?

    Look forward to you suggestions

    Cheers
     
  2. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Hi Nicho, I am not familiar to your clock. I can only make some suggestions based on my experiences.
    To increase the pendulum rotation, you need to do the followings:
    1. take out the main spring to clean. The main spring should be clean with 3M or steel wool,
    2. All the pivot holes and pivots need to be cleaned. You can use tooth pick to clean the pivot holes.
    3. Use correct size suspension spring,
    4. Fine tune the escapement, so the EW teeth land at the lock face instead of impulse face. Locking should not be too deep.
    5. Fine tune the position of the fork to maximize the rotation but still keep enough over swing. Keep in mind, over swing will decrease with the unwind of the main spring.
    6. Fine tune the beat to get them as even as possible.
    To me, above are the basic procedures to be done for each clock.
    Hope it help.
    I am sure many professional clock repairers and makers here will lend their hands to help you.
    Ming
     
  3. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    These clocks run pretty deep into the escape wheel.
    If you manually manipulate the anchor to one side and then bring it to center, where is the EW tooth in its travel across the impulse face of the pallet? It should be about 25% into the full impulse. Same for the opposite direction.
    If that looks good, move on to getting the clock into beat by turning the suspension in its mount, slightly.
    Then look at how much rotation and overswing you have. Correct by raising or lowering the fork on the suspension spring. Moving down increases overswing and reduces rotation. Too far down and you'll get flutter, which will make the clock appear to have too strong of a suspension spring.
    If you're not getting flutter and it's still fast, you'll need to thin the spring or go down in size.
     
  4. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Are the escapement teeth landing on the lock side of the knee
    or the impulse side of the knee?
    Have the pallets or depthing been fiddled with?
    Running slow is almost always the wrong spring size for that
    particular bob. ( if the loss rate is consistent )
    I'd get it running well first before I attacked changing the suspension spring.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  5. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Hi Marylander, Thankyou for your reply.
    The clock has been dismantled, cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner and reassembled, including the main spring which was dry and lacking in lubrication. The pivot holes have been cleaned by using tooth picks.
    I'm not sure about the suspension spring, there are no listings for Hauck clocks. A Horovolar .0038" is currently fitted but I have others .0035 and .0033.
    I have raised the pallets using the eccentric mounting. The lock on both pallets has been deepened.

    Now, the point of the entrance pallet lands on the tip of the EW tooth that is entering the movement. At this point the escapement is locked with the teeth not being able to move backwoods or forwards.[​IMG]

    Its difficult to photograph and the see the wheel in the photograph

    Cheers
     
  6. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    It's usually a mistake to alter the eccentric setting. I can't see the pallets in your pic.
     
  7. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Hi Martin, Thanks for your reply.
    I'm not sure where the centre point would be now. The suspension midpoint has been altered to bring the static position to the centre of its swing. I'll have another look at that.

    Hi Tinker, Thanks for your reply.
    The pallets land pretty much on the corner of the two faces, although now that the pallets have been raised the pallets land on the locking face. Yes the pallets have been fiddled with.

    Hi Shutterbug, thanks for your reply.
    Yes I know that it is usually mistake, but I think it was the right thing to do in this case. I am prepared to be proved wrong.
    I can't see the pallet in the photo either. Maybe I'll sketch it up and scan it.

    Cheers
     
  8. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Shutterbug,
    If you have a look at fig10 on page 46 of the 10th edition of the guide, the tooth has just gone past the entrance pallet. On two of my EW teeth, the entrance pallet actually strikes the tooth at C, sitting right on the point and locking up the escapement.
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Yeah, big problem there, Nicko. Locks are set in two ways. The first is by manipulating the distance between the pallets, and the second is by moving the eccentric. The eccentric is usually accurately set at the factory and I've never seen the need to change one. There may be an issue with something being inserted into the clock from a donor movement. A video of it running would sure help ;)
     
  10. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Hi Nicko, The main spring can not be cleaned by Ultrasonic cleaner. You have to take the spring out of barrel and clean. The old main spring surface are saturated with dry oil like varnish. If the spring is not cleaned, the friction between each turn will reduce the output power. Lack the power will reduce the pendulum rotate. As long as the EW teeth land at the locking faces about 1-1.5mm to the transition point, it will be fine. Do not let them land too deep. It will loss power if EW teeth land to deep.
    Ming
     
  11. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The eccentric should only be set to adjust the drop distances.
    One would move the pallets to keep the drops onto a lock surface
    while adjusting the drops.
    The eccentric effects both the drops and lock but is not the right way
    to adjust the locks.
    The amount of lock should be minimal at the instant of drop. You can only
    check the lock by rotating the bob as the fork and suspension spring also
    effect where the tooth lands on the lock surface ( this is unlike any other
    dead beat you may have worked on ).
    Tinker Dwight
     
  12. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Hi Marylander, Thanks for your reply.
    As you say the main spring is never cleaned in my Ultrasonic. They stretched out and are cleaned separately using solvent and a cloth, then lubed with Keystone Mainspring Lubricant.
     
  13. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Hi Tinker, Thanks for your reply.
    Both of the pallets were landing on the corner of the impulse area and the locking faces. I did (maybe incorrectly) raise the eccentric to get the pallets to land on the locking face. I think this was partially successful but has introduced other errors. What is the error called when the entrance pallet only just clears the entrance tooth?
    I'll try again with a photo. As you can see the entrance pallet has landed on the tip of that marked tooth. The EW runs CCW in Hauck clocks. Also it only does this for 2 teeth. That would indicate a distorted tooth. Bit I can't see it. I've checked the tooth angles against a template, I've put it into a lathe collet and checked the length of the teeth with a clock gauge. How do I get that tooth passed the pallet.

    Cheers

    [​IMG]
     
  14. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    If a couple of teeth are higher, it may indicate the bent pivot. You can check the truth of the pivots. Just a thought.
    Ming
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    On the escapement wheel, two things can happen to jam
    the wheel.
    One can be that the tooth height is off and the other is that
    the spacing between teeth is off.

    Please got back and adjust the eccentric correctly. Adjust it
    for the drops and not for the locks. You will have issue as long
    as it is not corrected. If it is wrong you will be wasting time.
    The teeth are suppose to land right at the edge but on the
    lock side of the corner and not on the impulse face. This is
    adjusted by sliding the pallet in or out of the anchor, not
    by adjusting the eccentric. The fork height also effects this some.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    OK then,
    The procedure is to adjust the drops and then the locks. How do I know when the drops are correct? What is the end result that am supposed to be looking for here. The guide says to raise or lower the pivot hole to increase or decrease the drop. What is the end point of the adjustment for drops i.e. what should I see when is it right.

    Cheers
     
  17. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Hi Nicko, Since your clock acentric pivot has been changed, you can do some experiments with it. You can raise it up or down to see the net effect. Of course, make a mark before you do the experiments, so you can adjust it back to the original point before the adjustments. If you have a Schatz mini clock such as London Couch, you can easily do your experiments on it. This clock acentric pivot can be change easily. After you have done all the experiments, you will learn a lot and the experience willl remain in you for a long tine. Do not afraid to make mistakes, with patience, you will get it right eventurally.
    My experience is that as long as the EW teeth drop on the locking face 1mm or so (first moment landing point) from the transition point (corner between impulse face and locking face), the clock will work fine.
    You can also follow the guide table from RG 10th edition page 47. I did not follow it very well, but it may help you. I value more of experiments.
    Ming
     
  18. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #18 Tinker Dwight, May 7, 2017
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    Unlike recoil escapements adjusting the drops by moving the depth
    adjust both drops at the same time and by about the same amount
    but in opposite directions.
    On a recoil it adjust mostly the exit drop onto the entrance pallet only
    and has little effect on the entrance drop.
    It is best to do this with little or no power in the spring. A split second
    of spinning the escapement wheel at full speed into loose pallets well
    bend the escapement wheel badly.
    Drop is the distance that a tooth falls onto the lock of the next pallet.
    These are so small you have to use a magnifier. There is what I call
    inside drop and outside drop. Inside drop is where the entrance
    pallet lets go of the escapement and it lands on the lock of the exit pallet.
    Outside drop is where the drop is off the exit pallet and the escapement tooth
    lands on the entrance pallet's lock.
    As you adjust this, it is possible that you'll see it miss the lock and land
    on the impulse face.
    This may mean that you need to move the pallet on the anchor down more
    to allow adjustment of the drops to land on lock surfaces.
    When adjusting and looking at one side, only adjust 1/2 the distance you think
    you need. This is because it is kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
    As you open up the drop on one side, the drop on the other will reduce by the
    same amount.
    This is the nature of deadbeat escapements.
    Lowering the anchor opens up the inside drop while reducing the outside drop.
    Raising the anchor reduces the inside drop while increasing the outside drop.
    Once the drops are set, don't fiddle with it again. It should never need adjustment.

    Unlike most deadbeats, it is difficult to adjust the locks on these clocks because of
    the windup of the spring above the fork.
    On a regular deadbeat, you can set pallet depth by sliding the pallets in their
    mounts, on the anchor, statically. By this I mean you can move the anchor
    manually and watch where is lands on the next pallet. The only trick is to
    have them about the same amount out of the anchor to make beat setting easy.
    On these, if you set the lock this way, you will miss the lock surface and
    and land on the impulse, every time.
    The way I like to do it is first set the lever, exactly straight up. By this I
    mean exactly or at least exactly the same for each pallet.
    I do this by holding the lever up and putting a small dot one each plate at the
    edge with a sharpie pen. I want it so that if I site along the closer dot to the
    lever and the other dot, they are, all three, right in line. Use one eye only for this.
    When it is like this and there is light tension on the escapement wheel,
    one of the teeth of the escapement will, or should be, on the impulse face.
    It should have traveled about 1/3 the way across the impulse face.
    One then move the lever to let it escape to the other pallet.
    Carefully move the lever to exactly the same place by aligning the lever
    and the dots. Now look at where the tooth is on that pallet. It should be
    1/3 in its direction of travel as well. Adjust the pallets to achieve this
    1/3.
    The key to this is that the lever has to return to exactly the same place
    for each pallet. One of the other fellows tried to do it this way and failed
    because it wasn't exactly the same location. It was several degrees off.
    Check every tooth of the escapement. A bent tooth or short tooth will
    not be in the right, consistent, location.
    This will require fixing the escapement wheel ( I've found that if the escapement
    has been fiddled with, the escapement wheel is almost always damaged.
    Someone though they could safely adjust this under full wound power! ).
    Once you are satisfied with this lock adjustment, you can work on the fork
    height and beat adjustment.
    Remember, you need over swing but not so much that it flutters or fails
    to land on the lock surface. Total swing is not as important.
    So:
    1. Adjust for equal drops by adjusting the eccentric.
    2. Adjust the locks, compensating for the springs recoil of the anchor.
    3. Adjust the fork to have some over swing but no flutter.
    4. Adjust the beat for equal over swing in each direction.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  19. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Hi Marylander & Tinker,

    Thanks for your replies. I have the escapement working at the moment. I will leave it going for tonight and have another look at it tomorrow. OK about the drops. I really don't know how you would reliably measure that. I could print a 360º circle and mount it behind the escape wheel as a guide.
    Its very difficult to see what's happening on the escape wheel. There are no peep holes on the rear plate. I have to turn the clock around and use a small mechanics mirror to see what's going at the entry pallets, trying to remember that, what I am looking at is a mirror image with the pallets reversed. As if it wasn't bad enough to have a clock where the escape wheel turns in a different direction from all the diagrams & texts that I have.

    The clock has been fiddled with. There is no escaping that. If I wanted to replace the escape wheel who would be able to supply or make one?

    Cheers.
     
  20. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If there are no holes, the drops can be set by
    watching from the side and working the lever by hand.
    Right after the drop you can wiggle the escapement
    wheel back and forth.
    That should give you a good sense of the amount of drop.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  21. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    <alt><ctrl><del> for the clock. I've taken it apart again to bring the lever upright. There are some escapement wheel teeth that look a bit dodgy. I may be able to mount the wheel by the pivots in the lathe. I'll will see if I can make some runners that small. If I machined up a teeth cutter, I could use that to check tooth geometry. That might be an idea. I don't have a tooth cutter, but the tool will give me some idea.

    Thanks and cheers.
     
  22. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You can use a piece modeling clay to make an impression.
    This will allow you to compare the spacing.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  23. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    I've used some plasticine to make an impression of the teeth, and then moved the wheel tooth by tooth until I see a tooth that throws all the other imprints off. This was partially successful
    I would like to make something a bit more rigid than plasticine. Using the measurements in the Repair Guide I sketched two teeth in a CAD program. From there I can get a CAD print of what I need to do.

    The first jpeg is the measurements that I could glean from the guide.
    View attachment 343820
    I'll have Another try when I get the .JPG right
    Cheers
     
  24. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Nicko, this is a unique way to find misaligned teeth in an escape wheel. It should allow you to see all variances of tooth position.

    When you get the opportunity, it would be appreciated if you could post photos of your clock. There aren't very many with the 3-ball pendulum No. 26, would like to see the details so we can compare to the other clocks.
     
  25. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Its all very well to look at a drawing in your favourite CAD program, but its another to try to put it down as a useable real size drawing.
    Having discovered this, I thought I'd draw the escape wheel with something that could be useful. I settled for a circular series of 20 radial lines. I cut out that image, glued onto a piece of brass, centre drilled on the centre of the circle and finished with the shaft sized drill. I'll post a image with the teeth a bit bent.
    View attachment 345147
    and another one with the teeth straightened up.
    View attachment 345148

    Thanks Tinker and others for your write up. I have been working through that slowly.
    Before I put the anchor back in I sat it on a level surface and adjusted the pallets so the anchor stands straight up. Is this the right thing to do?
    I'll start the drops and locks adjustments and report in from time to time.

    John, what sort of pictures do want, one of the complete clock, or one of its entrails.
     
  26. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Many have used the straight up method with good results.
    It does slightly unbalance the anchor but seems to work well enough
    that I'd not justify changing the method.
    It looks like your method of getting teeth straight is working well.
    You should still use a lathe to check the length of the teeth.
    It is more critical than the spacing.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  27. Nicko

    Nicko Registered User

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    Dumb question alert! In this clock. the escape wheel rotates anti clock wise unlike the drawings in the guide. When it comes to trouble shooting say, the first line, of the table on page 47, Entrance More, Exit pallet less, does the raise lower pivot hole remain true?
     
  28. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Entrance pallet is the one the top of the escapement
    wheel rotates towards. The exit pallet is the one it rotates way from.
    This is always determined the same, regardless of which way the escapement
    wheel rotates.
    Moving the anchor up or down will be the same.
    This is why I prefer to use the term inside drop and outside drop.
    There is no question about what is the entrance/exit or rotation. Inside
    drop is between the pallets. Outside is outside.
    You increase inside drop by lowering the anchor and decrease it by raising
    it.
    The opposite is true for outside drop. Lowering decreases outside drop
    and raising increases it.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Here's an article that might help. I believe it was written by David LaBounty.
     
  30. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    This article is for recoil pallets and not correct for adjusting a deadbeat on 400
    day clocks!! It doesn't even make sense for a 400 day clock.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  31. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Tinker, I believe the article is for deadbeat escapements but for gravity pendulum clocks and NOT 400-Day clocks. The key point in the article is to adjust for minimum drop and maximum lock, which is correct for gravity pendulum clocks that don't have any concern about fluttering.

    One key point in adjusting 400-Day clocks that is emphasized in the Repair Guide Section 7 is to set the locks and drops to be equal, what some call a "square" setting. Generally, locks should "never" exceed drops for 400-Day clocks, but can operate OK when locks are less than drops. The limitation in that direction is that when locks are insufficient (too small) you will encounter uncontrollable fluttering.
     
  32. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Nicko, the drawings in the Repair Guide show the escape wheels viewing from the BACK of the clock. The deadbeat escape wheels illustrated are all turning clockwise from that view, since they are connected directly to the center wheel. In looking at the photo you posted on page 2 your escape wheel also turns clockwise when viewed from the back of the clock.

    Pin pallet escape wheels in the Repair Guide illustrations are turning counter-clockwise viewing from the back, because there is another wheel between the center wheel and the escape wheel on that type of escapement.
     
  33. TQ60

    TQ60 Registered User

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    After reading all went back to op and the indication is that the clock is out of beat.

    There may be issues elsewhere but the description in the op is swinging more in one direction than the other.

    The escapement may have more power one way maybe but still should have in beat before other concerns are looked at and addressed.
     
  34. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I've spoken with David LaBounty about this document. He doesn't believe it was created by him.
    As part of our talk, he agrees that there are a number of incorrect statements. Also, the document
    looks to have been created as a document to make a deadbeat, and not on how to adjust one
    that is out of adjustment.
    On ENTRANCE DROP, one is starting with a minimal drop as a first adjustment.
    The statement "This doesn't effect the locks or exit drop."
    is not correct for an escapement that has already been created. It
    is talking about the iterative process of shaping the pallets, where one would
    later adjust the exit pallets and then go back and modify the entrance pallet,
    as part of an iterative process.
    On a recoil this would usually be a single pass while on a deadbeat it might
    need to be repeated.
    This pdf should not be used to adjust a deadbeat that has been already manufactured
    and working.
    Tinker Dwight
     
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