Has anyone here used diamond grit lapping film for graver sharpening?

[part-timer]

I recently ran across a 3M product called diamond lapping film. It's made in either round discs or rectangular sheets. It's available at Taylor Toolworks. They make it in various grit sizes, ranging from [125 micron = 120 grit] all the way up to [0.1 micron = 200,000 grit].
Has anyone here had any direct experience with it? It looks interesting, and it's giving me some ideas for ways to sharpen my gravers, especially my carbide gravers.
Just wondering, especially what the substrate is made from. I haven't ordered any of it yet.
EDIT... here's tech info from 3M's website: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b5005288016/

 

[Wimberleytech]

Just wondering, especially what the substrate is made from. I haven't ordered any of it yet.
EDIT... here's tech info from 3M's website: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b5005288016/

Substrate is a big question in my mind. If it is too thin, you could cut into it if you didn't get your angle right. I use these. Use them for drivers and gravers.

 

[part-timer]

Substrate is a big question in my mind. If it is too thin, you could cut into it if you didn't get your angle right. I use these. Use them for drivers and gravers.

I agree with you; the substrate is important to know. If the 3M product uses some hyper-thin acetate or similar substance, it would be vulnerable to piercing/tearing from the very edge you're trying to sharpen. I don't know why both 3M and Taylor Toolworks would neglect to identify the substrate. The substrate's thickness would be useful, too.
The DMT diamond foil is a good product; I have several of those myself. Oddly, the Amazon listing also neglects to disclose that the substrate DMT uses is steel foil!

 

[part-timer]

So I called Taylor Toolworks and they told me that the substrate is polyester film, 3 mils thick (which means 0.003"). The instructions that come with the lapping film say that you first have to thoroughly clean whatever you're going to adhere the film to, and take care because even one dust mote will cause a bump in the film once it's down.
I'm surmising nobody here has used this stuff - or haven't heard of it.
Still, it sound interesting and might be worth experimenting with. It would be nice to achieve a series of grits to take a given graver to a nice polished surface.

 

[L. Vanice]

Barkus and Waller sold small diamond flat face grinding wheels for sharpening their carbide gravers. Levin sold one also. Those were made to be used in a watch lathe. I have accumulated several of them over the years, mostly found at Regionals. But I have larger machine tools and have heavier duty carbide grinding equipment. Resin bond diamond wheels were the norm years ago and USA-made products were expensive. Chinese sellers on eBay have very low prices for resin bond diamond wheels these days. Diamond plated wheels are even cheaper. Flat faced diamond plated wheels on metal backing, thick or thin, work well and are usually run comparatively slow and dry.

I most like my Glendo Accu- Finish Series I grinder. I also have a Baldor carbide grinder and a Leonard Grinder-Lap. These are all expensive industrial quality metalworking tools, but you might find a deal on a used one.

Cheapest way I know to sharpen carbide gravers is a Chinese 6" thin steel disc with electro plated diamond in many grit sizes, sold on eBay for $13.50 with free shipping from KY or similar items from other sellers. I think they are superior to adhesive backed plastic discs for our purpose.

6'' inch Diamond Lap Disk Grinding Disc 1/2 inch Arbor Hole For Gemstone Jewelry | eBay

Arbor hole : 12.7mm (close to 1/2" ). Suitable to grinding gemstone, jewelry, glass, rock, carving knife, etc…. Diamond coating surface area : almost 95%,only one side is coated diamond. Diamond coating Density : Perfectly high.
www.ebay.com

These discs fit the Work Sharp 3000 grinder, which is comparatively inexpensive and is also very nice for sharpening woodworking tools.
https://www.amazon.com/Work-Sharp-WS3000-Wood-Sharpener/dp/B000PVHIMW/ref=sr_1_7?crid=Q1FBFUAG4120&keywords=chisel+sharpener&qid=1673827690&sprefix=chisel+sharpener%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-7

Or you can build your own grinder.

Larry

 

[John MacArthur]

What I use: Small Diamond Grinding Wheels Not cheap, but great for lots of things.
Johnny

 

[Nickelsilver]

What I use: Small Diamond Grinding Wheels Not cheap, but great for lots of things.
Johnny

I would definitely go for these over paper. There's enough diamond on those wheels to easily last decades of frequent grinding of small gravers; I think they would be cheaper even in the short term over the lapping film, and would give better results more quickly. I see they have D9 now, that's plenty fine for a really nice finish (will look pretty polished once the wheel has been used a bit) on a graver; that paired with the coarse D91 you could shape large tools quickly with a great finish at the edge.

 

[DeweyC]

I recently ran across a 3M product called diamond lapping film. It's made in either round discs or rectangular sheets. It's available at Taylor Toolworks. They make it in various grit sizes, ranging from [125 micron = 120 grit] all the way up to [0.1 micron = 200,000 grit].
Has anyone here had any direct experience with it? It looks interesting, and it's giving me some ideas for ways to sharpen my gravers, especially my carbide gravers.
Just wondering, especially what the substrate is made from. I haven't ordered any of it yet.
EDIT... here's tech info from 3M's website: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b5005288016/

We were told to experiment with 3M on glass in Neuchatel. It rounds the cutting edges because the film yields to pressure. Nice finish though. We (I) use it in plate glass for many finishing purposes.

We had the Glendo like Larry and it is VERY good for steel gravers. Nearly fool proof. And to my mind, not all that expensive used.

I use only carbide cutters made from solid carbide ckt bd. drills prior to the newer hybrid drills. You can use a resin diamond wheel on an SO type grinder. I use this off hand to touch up my gravers; like 10 seconds.

I found an Agathon clone (Star) for $500 that I use for making all of my cutters. The 1/8" shank of the drills enables me to have one library of cutters for graver, WW and 102. I also use it for making micro boring bars.

You CAN use the SO grinder the same way, but I am too stupid (read several manuals and descriptions and failed) and the Agathon is so easy.

 

[part-timer]

We were told to experiment with 3M on glass in Neuchatel. It rounds the cutting edges because the film yields to pressure. Nice finish though. We (I) use it in plate glass for many finishing purposes.

We had the Glendo like Larry and it is VERY good for steel gravers. Nearly fool proof. And to my mind, not all that expensive used.

I use only carbide cutters made from solid carbide ckt bd. drills prior to the newer hybrid drills. You can use a resin diamond wheel on an SO type grinder. I use this off hand to touch up my gravers; like 10 seconds.

I found an Agathon clone (Star) for $500 that I use for making all of my cutters. The 1/8" shank of the drills enables me to have one library of cutters for graver, WW and 102. I also use it for making micro boring bars.

You CAN use the SO grinder the same way, but I am too stupid (read several manuals and descriptions and failed) and the Agathon is so easy.

Good morning, Dewey.
Okay, that's the kind of information I'm looking for - actual experience with the 3M 668X lapping film.

You say that it rounds the cutting edges because of yielding to pressure... do you recall if the amount of "edge rounding" varied with the amount of applied pressure? The reason I ask is that with my little Bergeron 2462 graver fixture, I've found that I can easily control the pressure I apply with my fingers... it's easy to refrain from bearing down hard. Seems to me that as long as light pressure is used, rounding could be minimized - but I'd like to know your input.

Thanks so much, Dewey... I still have some of your non-ammoniated clock cleaning concentrate that you sold me years ago!
...Doug

 

[DeweyC]

Good morning, Dewey.
Okay, that's the kind of information I'm looking for - actual experience with the 3M 668X lapping film.

You say that it rounds the cutting edges because of yielding to pressure... do you recall if the amount of "edge rounding" varied with the amount of applied pressure? The reason I ask is that with my little Bergeron 2462 graver fixture, I've found that I can easily control the pressure I apply with my fingers... it's easy to refrain from bearing down hard. Seems to me that as long as light pressure is used, rounding could be minimized - but I'd like to know your input.

Thanks so much, Dewey... I still have some of your non-ammoniated clock cleaning concentrate that you sold me years ago!
...Doug

No, you really do need a hard unyielding surface. The 3M material is a game changer, AP uses it in polishing operations. But it is not for sharp edges.

Buy a selection, glue pieces to plate glass and experiment. I use it a lot on screws and flat springs. Watch eBay for a Glendo.

 

[part-timer]

No, you really do need a hard unyielding surface. The 3M material is a game changer, AP uses it in polishing operations. But it is not for sharp edges.

Buy a selection, glue pieces to plate glass and experiment. I use it a lot on screws and flat springs. Watch eBay for a Glendo.

Thanks for the input - much appreciated.
Experimentation will commence as soon as a selection of the 3M stuff arrives.
...Doug

 

[L. Vanice]

The Work Sharp 3000 grinder has available plate glass discs. I use one to support those thin Chinese plated diamond discs. They also sell adhesive backed abrasive discs for sharpening steel tools. The adhesive discs can be attached to the glass discs or the standard plastic discs that come with the grinder. Those glass discs would be perfect for mounting the 3M diamond film discs if they come in 6" diameter. The low speed wheel would make for faster sharpening than using a Crocker or Bergeon tool to rub a graver over stationary film.



I have a spare Glendo AccuFinish Series I in near new condition. I bought it to get a couple of the wheels it had with it and never used the grinder. If anyone is interested, start a "conversation" and I will get it out and refresh my memory of what wheels are still with it. It is in Fort Wayne, IN. I suspect the grinders are no longer made, but Glendo stills sells wheels and such.

Larry

 

[part-timer]

The Work Sharp 3000 grinder has available plate glass discs. I use one to support those thin Chinese plated diamond discs. They also sell adhesive backed abrasive discs for sharpening steel tools. The adhesive discs can be attached to the glass discs or the standard plastic discs that come with the grinder. Those glass discs would be perfect for mounting the 3M diamond film discs if they come in 6" diameter. The low speed wheel would make for faster sharpening than using a Crocker or Bergeon tool to rub a graver over stationary film.



I have a spare Glendo AccuFinish Series I in near new condition. I bought it to get a couple of the wheels it had with it and never used the grinder. If anyone is interested, start a "conversation" and I will get it out and refresh my memory of what wheels are still with it. It is in Fort Wayne, IN. I suspect the grinders are no longer made, but Glendo stills sells wheels and such.

Larry

Thanks for that, Larry. The Work Shop website indicates that the 3000 comes with 2 glass wheels in the box. The manual states that the wheel speed is 580 rpm. The 3M diamond lapping film discs come in a variety of diameters including 6", with micron grades ranging from 9 microns down to 0.1 microns, and with pressure-sensitive adhesive backing. It seems to add up to a viable system, certainly more affordable than the Glendo AccuFinish grinders. Although, I have to say that the Glendo factory is around an hour's drive from my house and I've been meaning to visit them - they tell me they'd be happy to show off their products. I probably shouldn't tempt myself as I'm on an extremely fixed income... I'm guessing a used WS 3000 would be all I could afford.

Interestingly, the 3M diamond lapping film discs are also available in 2" diameter. One of my "intended" projects is to make a series of brass wax chucks for my Rivett "2b" watchmaker's lathe. My intention was to end up with a series of diamond grits. I only just now realized the discs were available in 2" diameter, so it might be next up on my agenda.