Harwood

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by beta21, Dec 14, 2004.

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  1. Montrealgpf1

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    Because a patent was said to be used preferably in automobiles does not mean it was in fact used solely there.

    As is revealed in the attached picture, the movement bearing this patent is in a wristwatch... not a car. So wristwatches WERE being made using this 1926 patent and NOT the 150660 patent applied for in 1930. This means these AUTOMATIC WRISTWATCHES were highly likely made between 1926 and 1930.



    BFB308F0-295E-4356-A11A-C7BBCCFE301B.jpeg
     
  2. Adam Harris

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    Ah ok i see where you are coming from
    except
    there is no comparison in the technical details between the automobile clock
    the panent number on the watch is nothing to do with a wristwatch, so you can not surmize as you do.
    that wristwatch could be 1960 with an irrelevant patent number attached in an attempt to protect it
    a
     
  3. Montrealgpf1

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    Have a look at patent 150660 CH. Espacenet - Original document

    If I had built this watch in 1965, I would not have used a 1925 patent meant for cars. I would have used this more recent 1932 patent that I also owned (150660) and that refers more precisely to wristwatches.

    That is why it makes way more sense for these watches to have been built before 1932, taking advantage of what was then an existing patent (from 1926).
     
  4. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I was being sarcastic with 1965 to make a point
    Give me proof your watch has any significance in the beginning of self winding watches.

    More importantly give me one item of proof it superseded HARWOOD as you first tried to imply.

    Of course it was made prior to 1932 NO one made a side winder after that. Its a ridiculous design
     
  5. Montrealgpf1

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    I have m stakes in this. I own them all. Just trying to figure out the correct historical order.
     
  6. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Thats fine
    But not by hope, or speculation
    I need facts to push John Harwood off his GENESIS.
    Not just because you have a "strange" watch

    I have many such pieces
     
  7. Montrealgpf1

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    You still think I am trying to push him off his Genesis? I will settle for #2 position... But we will have to argue over which one held that position previously. You keep mentioning Hatot but he is in fact after Meylan, Frey, Autorist and Mars Wig-Wag. Given the period (1925-1935) they all matter.

    And why would you refer to Bulova’s 169089 patent as Wig-Wag 2 in your seminar. That watch has no relation to wig-wag other than a tho and fro (up-down) movement. Bulova made them under their own name, but also shared their patent with Bucherer, Lucerne and Libela.

    525536BE-FB93-4759-91CB-5130FD2F9C11.jpeg
     
  8. Adam Harris

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    Because there are two WIG -WAG's #1 and #2
    Very different
     
  9. Montrealgpf1

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    Your labeling, not anyone else’s. Bulova did not call theirs Wig-wag 2 did they?

    Name one source who did.
     
  10. Montrealgpf1

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    Mine, and I will never call this a Wig Wag 2.


    upload_2019-1-25_23-54-36.jpeg upload_2019-1-25_23-54-36.jpeg
     
  11. Adam Harris

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    Look you came here a few days ago with new revelations and big claims that John Harwood was not (not may not but NOT) the originator of the self winding wristwatch
    You even got "haters" like Ben piping in with irrelevancies.

    I am first absolutely sure based on everything thrown at him and me that John Harwood is the originator and GENESIS of the self winding wristwatch

    There after my webinar lays claim to who followed.
    If you can disprove any of that, then great - but until them John Harwood patented and mass produced the first self winding wristwatch.

    Rolex was about No8 in Q3 1933 and not as they spout and believe and lie in 1931

    Thats all
     
  12. Montrealgpf1

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    That lie was an amazing and deceiving pull, wasn’t it? You likely have the same advert I have in 1934 where Rolex says “we got 27 records in 1933...” then they add “THIS year we present Oyster Perpetual...” meaning 1934...

    I counted at least 6 automatic patents (with production watches) before the Rolex Oyster Perpetual. Maybe 7 after I investigate an early Cortebert from 1933.

    You’re not n Spain (7 am) now are you?



    6EBB5058-2619-4DE3-92DB-4BD5BDA62EE6.jpeg
     
  13. Montrealgpf1

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    More importantly, you are a great defender of John Harwood, Adam, and this is awesome. Kudos to you.

    First patent, and the only engineer to be well documented for his creation of a no-stem auto watch, inspired simply by a seesaw...
     
  14. Barney Green

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    #64 Barney Green, Jan 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
    Adam,
    I agree with you that Drivas patent is not center weight. Also I doubt that they used the Novix brand before they registered it. Where I disagree is the car clock term. Although the patent mentions the "preferable" use in a car clock they were still free to use it in a wristwatch. Other than that the history at the classicwatch site must be wrong. It does not make any sense that they filed for bankruptty in 1929, registered trademarks in 1930 and consecutive years, when being revived in 1938. This is simply incorrect. I have proof that they were active all those years (OK, no proof for the single year of 1936 to be fair). The move to Geneve was 1st of September 1939 and as wirtten earlier the company was still existing in 2014. So this is all wrong information about the history.
    No doubt at all that Driva did not manufacture automatic wristwatches before Harwood and very, very likely that they did not before 1930.
    This compny was much of a copycat company, they also reverse engineered the Alpinova from Alpina Gruen, had it opened turned by 180 degrees and filed for a patent for that "invention".
     
  15. Barney Green

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    upload_2019-1-26_13-1-53.png

    Also the case dates these watches to the 30s...
    Driva protected the design in January 1931.
     
  16. Montrealgpf1

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    Good information, thanks. May I ask what book this is from?

    A few observations:

    1) Is a company merely a copy cat when it has its own design, its own patent, then uses those in a watch? And a 1925 patent is a copy cat of what, exactly? We already agree the design was different than Harwood. What else was there to copy in 1925?

    2) To be exact, the classic watch site does not state 1929 as date of bankruptcy, they say it went bankrupt AFTER the 1929 crash. There are “registrations” that suggest activities in 1929 and 1930 for sure. For conclusions on activities, we can only use dates where they apply for, or request, something. 1932 is the year they received their second patent (applied in 1930). It is quite possible for a company to be alive when they apply for a patent (July 1930) and be bankrupt by the time the patent is delivered (Jan 1932). The Mikrolisk site I linked above reports registration of trademarks for many years after that (1934, 1937)... but unlike patents it does not mention when trademarks are applied for (ie full proof of existence of company). But I would agree it tends to show the company kept existing after 1930 rather than go bankrupt.

    3) If we have faith that the company existed after 1930, then why use its 1926 patent despite having registered one specifically for wristwatches in Jan 1932? I think this shows the watch I saw and have pictures of was manufactured after May 1926 but before Jan 1932.
     
  17. Adam Harris

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    My main concern at the beginning here was "if" there was a true -predecessor to the John Harwood Patent and mass production dates.
    So far and once again no evidence to prove that.

    Yes I own multiple Rolex , Harwood, ATO and most ephemera on the early self-winding wristwatches.
    Including Rolex insertion in Daily Express conceeding HARWOOD was the inventor of the Self =-Winding wristwatch.
     
  18. Barney Green

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    This information is not from a specific book but from several horological magazines and the official bulletin of the swiss chamber of commerce.of that time. I have collected terabytes of data researching the Gruen history and in these magazines there is of cause also information about all those other companies which have been around.
    ad 1) of cause they did not only copy designs. I might have been a bit sloppy stating this. But they definitely copied some outstanding designs around 1930 and tried to market them under their own brand. For this purpose they even filed their own patents not to get sued (like the Alpinova copy example).
    ad 2) in 1930 the company did a capital rise. This is the only financial news of that time, not a single word mentioning a bankruptcy. And this would have been in the bulletins for sure. And it is not only two or three patents being in the papers which may have filed before 1930 and granted later, it is consistent presence showing that they did not cease operation.
    ad 3) patents were granted for at least five years and often prolonged. The 1932 patent is technically differing from the 1926 one, so they may not have gone for an extension of the 1926 which became ineffective in 1931.

    It is of highest likelihood that these Novix watches were built about 1931 plus minus one year if we put together all this information.
    Please, I am not a wise guy, I am just building a model which takes into consideration all facts and results in the highest probability.

    And: please bear with me, I am German, not a native English speaker, so it is a bit difficult for me to translate all this into the English my limited vocabulary allows me. Moreover most of the sources are in French which I never learned...
     
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  19. Montrealgpf1

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    Please do not apologize. You are a wealth of information and are being generous!
     
  20. Montrealgpf1

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    Just to be clear about my contentions of 4 days ago (Tuesday), I did not advance that Harwood was NOT the originator of the self-winding wristwatch. This has been proven beyond doubt and I would lose all credibility if I tried to attack these facts.

    I contended instead that he might have had competition at production stage (1928-31) because of the long time he took to commercialise his earlier patent. Until now, his closest competitor was Glycine/Meylan who are reported to have produced their automatic in 1930. With my research on Driva, I had found a company that was able to compete with Harwood much earlier than Meylan. That is, as early as May 1926. 1931 is now suggested above apparently due to the raise in capital of 1930. Driva was selling many watches under many brand names. The raise in capital may have been for a variety of reasons, perhaps unrelated to the Novix self-winding watch. It may in fact have been to avoid bankruptcy during recession... With the movement picture and information now revealed, I think that Novix can be said to have been commercialized between May 1926 (patent issued) and December 1931 (before the Jan 1932 patent). Too bad we cannot have pictures of movements in the watches at auction.
     
  21. Adam Harris

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    I am more than happy to see anything in HOROLOGY questioned, and another thanks to Barney.

    Harwood without any doubt was shipping units in Q3 1926, and by his demise had shipped 34,000 pieces.

    I have 2 18kt mint pieces, one UK market the other a PERPETUAL for USA market in green gold.
    I have original boxes and instructions.
    I also have 1926 UNCUT shares in his company, of course I also have the BLANCPAIN oblong version and the AUTORIST

    I have all other examples except the 1933 WIG-WAG 2 made for Bulova

    good Thread and Good Research
    Regards
     
  22. richiec

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    You guys certainly flogged the horse through the hide but thank you all for the research and information that came out due to some differences. This is what it is all about.
     
  23. Montrealgpf1

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    FYI all, the company that Adam has uncut shares of is the "Societe Francaise de la montre sans remontoir Harwood". See here (http://www.watchnews.nawcc.org/the-quest-never-ends!.html).

    His share certificates are dated May 15, 1929 (not 1926). This is after production started, and at the beginning of the great depression.

    FYI, Harwood managed to get funding through a second company in 1930, called slightly differently: Societe CENTRALE de la montre sans remontoir Harwood. These certificates are dated March 15, 1930 (see first pic below - 5 shares certificate), 1 year after the initial capital raise.

    FYI also, a company having a very similar name was created to fund the Rolls watch (well well...) a few days before Harwood's second company (payment of shares are stamped March 12, 1930). Its name was Societe Centrale de la montre sans remontoir (no name added) - see second pic below / one share certificate. We know this is Rolls when looking at their advertisement at the time. This same name indeed appears on the Rolls watch advertisement of 1931 (third pic below).

    You are welcome...

    upload_2019-1-26_22-8-6.jpeg upload_2019-1-26_22-8-6.jpeg upload_2019-1-26_22-8-6.jpeg
     
  24. Adam Harris

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    ALL ABSOLUTELY CORRECT
    Thanks for great research and correcting my dates.
    I dont have the shares in front of me - but correctly corrected
    Adam
     
  25. Montrealgpf1

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    Not a big deal considering your HUGE contribution to horology. I sound very defying and all (apologies for my tone in this thread), but I happen to have huge respect for your work Adam as I have followed all your webinars and texts and I can safely say that we know what we know, and are where we are, largely because of your contributions.
     
  26. Adam Harris

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    Thanks your kind words of appreciation.
    My goal some 17 years ago was too find out who made and who wore the first wristwatch - something we did not know

    Both are now known - and I am proud to have been part of it.
    It it "gospel"? No but over 5 years and no better info.
    John Harwood falls in the same area.

    Great work
    Thanks and Take Care
     
  27. gatorcpa

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    At least Rolex agrees with you, Adam.

    rolex-gegendarstellung.png

    What's really interesting is that today, Rolex's Dallas Service Center is located on North Harwood Street!

    8.jpg

    Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
    gatorcpa
     
  28. Montrealgpf1

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    Ironic to say the least.

    Attaching a rare Perpetual advert. of what is essentially a Harwood watch. Dated Nov. 16, 1929.

    upload_2019-2-4_23-8-16.jpeg
     
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  29. Adam Harris

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    Yes Rolex and all other HOROLOGISTS until other undisputable truth can be shown

    I have the original newspaper, took me 7 years to find. I think Wilsdorf bought every copy LOL
    adam
     
  30. Adam Harris

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    This "is" Harwoods company. He marketed under the name "PERPETUAL" is America.
    Where do you think Rolex came up with the name??
     
  31. Montrealgpf1

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    __________________________________


    Adam (or anyone here actually) do you have "strange pieces" that are both automatic/self-winding AND purportedly belong in the 1925-45 era? I am really interested in knowing what was being manufactured back then.

    Based on countless hours of research (patents, books, auctions, websites and 100s of pictures of movements) my current roster of the first 16 auto watches is as follows. My criteria for ranking is production years (not patent). As mentioned earlier, we know the patent years (requested or granted). We also know SOME details on production. I have also tried to remain true to what I see on movements, like "Pat. Applied for" which are indications of a production year BEFORE the date the patent was applied for, but I am over-simplifying.

    Similar rankings have been attempted on this forum or others, but with less precision I believe.

    Manufacturer / Date of production

    1. Harwood 1928 - 31
    2. Driva Novix 1930 - 32 (possibly earlier)
    3. Frey Perpetual 1930 - 33
    3. Glycine EMSA 1930 - 42
    5. Autorist June 1931 - 34 (possibly earlier)
    6. Mars - July 1931 up
    7. Rolls 1932 - 34
    8. Cortebert 1933 up
    9. Aster - La Champagne 1934 up
    9. Bulova - Bucherer - Libela 1934 up
    9. Rolex Perpetual 1934 up
    12. Wyler 1935 up 1935 up
    13. Mido Taubert case with AS1049 1935 - 37
    14. Mido Multifort with AS1081 1937 - 51
    15. Pierce 861 subseconds 1940 - 45
    16. Pierce 861 central seconds 1945 - 54

    Frey was sold under the Perpetual brand (the other Harwood company) and they were very close to Glycine's production years (starting mid-1930 to early 1931). Hard to say who went first so I have them tied at #3.

    Autorist (#5) may also have come much earlier than admitted so far, based on data found on a Fortis website (see earlier post in this thread). But I am not sure if that was a prototype rather than production movement.

    For Cortebert (#8) I have one watch sample only, but it is a credible company and a credible seller. Patent is Dec. 1932 (565,455), so production is 1933 up.

    upload_2019-2-5_22-58-35.jpeg

    Bulova registered several patents and bought many others (Jacot, Barbezat). I have seen one in production (#9) and Adam called it wig-wag #2 (patent 169,089 CH, issued May 1934). Other Bulova auto watches from that era, that were sampled, did in fact borrow from Wyler patents (#12 in my list) so are not on the list for that reason.

    #15 and #16 can probably be outranked by other pedometer-like movements or by Felsa, Record, Mido 410 or 916-17... But I ranked them there because of the uniqueness of their linear automatic movement (cal. 861).

    Any others you know of in that era? Pics, patent #s...

    I have seen auctions of 2 more that I cannot quite rank yet:

    1) An Ixor auto watch with a Schmitz chrome case described as "cut rotor" self winding watch. Brand not mentioned in any book I own.
    2) A Phenix called Rollamatic (no details on movement, caliber, patent or year) but according to Hampel Phenix's first auto was in 1940 (cal. 89, but no mention of term Rollamatic).

    Also, did you know that the Autorist from Harwood had a women's version (the Universe)? I have yet to see any watch of that kind for sale.

    Enough for tonight, but let me reassure you that none of the above is an attempt to de-throne John Harwood as we both agree he was first in line at the patent office :p.

    ROLEX... Its as #9... And they claimed to be first... They should have written 8 apologies, not 1 !:$
     
  32. Adam Harris

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    Even your first date is wrong
    Harwood shipped his first watches in 1926.

    also. whats all this "possible earlier"
    Whats that about maybe 'possible later"

    Everything is 'possible' but lets base it on current known facts

    Autorist shipped 1931 - what we do NOT know is who owned the patent! It was not John Hawood!
    A
     
  33. Montrealgpf1

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    1928. Per Harwood himself:

    406715e8-4dc8-4093-9c87-8a525e1cb2e3-jpeg.jpg
     
  34. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I really got NO time arguing this

    Where did you find that article - I have a strong suspicion I discoverecd it and posted it.
    Please read everything else including Fortis book, and Blancpain

    Production started 1926!

    And where does that article state 1928?? NO WHERE read it ALL again.

    Finally ROLEX does NOT need to apologise to the other 7. Why? Because
    1) They NEVER made the first self winding watch
    2) There claim is the first ROTOR self winding
     
  35. Montrealgpf1

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    This is page 1 of the article.

    Harwood situates the story back in early 1922. On the other page that I posted earlier (also copied below), he says 5 years elapsed until he reached agreement with Schild, then another 1 year passed before an ebauche was in production.

    1922 + 5 + 1 = 1928

    I am happy to look at any evidence you have of 1926. I too want to to know as much as possible on Harwood.


    upload_2019-2-6_0-9-19.jpeg

    upload_2019-2-6_0-9-42.jpeg


    Also of note, in relation to your comment earlier about Autorist:

    Autorist S A applied for a US patent in 1931 but assigned it to Jacques Farret (US patent # 1,963,976, issued June 26, 1934).

    Recently found: Société de Recherches Scientifiques et d'Exploitation d'Inventions owned an earlier French patent (699,159). That same patent # was seen on an early Autorist movement in a Fortis 100-year jubilee guide (page 15):
    http://www.fortis-watches.com/upload/Jubliaeumsbuch/FORTIS-100-Years-Jubilee-Book.pdf. That patent was applied for in July 1930.

    The real issue is the dial on the Autorist which says RegP. This likely means Registered Patent, which in the absence of any patent number on the movement likely means "Patent Applied for". The remaining issue is whether this refers to the US or the French patent.

    If US, then it means "Applied for in 1931". If French then it means "Applied for in 1930".

    The Autorist production years were therefore either pre-1931 or pre-1930, depending on which patent is referenced in the expression RegP.

    upload_2019-2-5_23-56-37.jpeg upload_2019-2-6_0-4-23.jpeg upload_2019-2-6_0-4-42.jpeg
     
  36. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I really was not going to bother again trying to explain that HARWOOD/Fortis started production in 1926.
    I have multiple proof to that and indeed so does everyone accept that.
    But I cam accross this today in WATCHNEWS
    FORTIS HARWOOD 1926.PNG

    Please the HARWOOD "Self-Winding" watch met its debut in 1926 (August from memory)
    ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:
    10 Milestone Moments in the History of the Wristwatch
     
  37. tgarnold

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    I figured since it was asked for on this thread I would post pics of the Phenix Rollamatic. I have a few of these I got in the same lot as the weird, possibly experimental Harwoods of which I sent 1 to Adam to document. I'm not sure if these were unsuccessful tries at a waterproof watch as well.

    WIN_20190218_18_10_19_Pro.jpg WIN_20190218_18_10_46_Pro.jpg WIN_20190218_18_11_55_Pro.jpg WIN_20190218_18_12_10_Pro.jpg WIN_20190218_18_17_10_Pro.jpg
     
  38. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    These watches are NOTHING to do with Harwood. This is a rotor design patented by ROLEX in Q4 1933.
    BUT
    Your watch is from the mid 40s or 50s.
    Harwood was 1926 - 1933

    Sorry nothing special to these.
    Thanks for sharing though
    adam
     
  39. tgarnold

    tgarnold Registered User

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    I wasn't implying they were special or early. Montrealgpf1 mentioned not knowing where to put these since he had never seen one. They look very 1950s to me.
     
  40. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    OK
    50s makes sense no earlier
     
  41. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Thank you for the detailed FACTS and info on Phenix, tgarnold. Quite rare Nd

    Very protective of the 25-35 era again, Adam... You weren’t gonna “bother again” but you did, didn’t you?

    And you did with ads and acknowledgements that pale in comparison with genuine research on accurate dates. Saying that Harwood “met its debut in 1926” means nothing. It refers to the fact he was at Basel fair that year. You keep claiming - repeatedly - that you have proof of production in 1926, but I am afraid you do not know what proof is.

    I have produced above evidence from Harwood HIMSELF that he went into production only in 1928. Not sure how your third party ads shed better light than that on the issue. Why don’t you post other, prevalent evidence you claim you own? Unless perhaps you want to keep it to yourself while preserving a myth?

    Reminder that I produced evidence that the watch I now own (Driva Novix) was produced ANY TIME between May 1926 and Dec 1931. This includes the 1926-1928 period when Harwood was struggling to go into production, as he HIMSELF admits in the 1951 article he HIMSELF wrote above.
     
  42. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Quite rare Nd ??

    Means

    Quite rare find
     
  43. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Actually, I have not found much if indeed anything accurate by you.
    Yes I "was not going to bother again" , however, quite by accident I come across an article supporting 1926.
    The article you keep on claiming too - I also have - just sadly not with me - nor do I have any of my ephemera or related early self-winding timepiece articles.

    Yes, "I am protective of 1935 to 1935 era" not that I am unwilling to change - but not based on your pure desire to take John Harwood off his currently correct position of the designer and genesis of the mass produced self-winding watch

    A
     
  44. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    This article says Fortis "introduced" the watch in 1926. What does introduce mean? They indeed were at Basel that year, but Harwood himself acknowledges issues with production initially and up to 1928 (see article posted earlier in the thread). Does anyone here have direct evidence that leads to the conclusion that a Harwood watch was mass produced earlier than 1929? I am not trying to disprove someone else, I simply want to know. I own 6 so I desperately want to situate his production years versus others.

    Once his movement and auto mechanism were figured out, he needed a case and a bezel to match. The bezel rotates the hands. No other watches were designed that way. There was no existing case and bezel to use and these are critical for mass production.

    He only applied to patent his unique CASE in February 1929: Espacenet - Original document

    He only applied to patent his unique BEZEL in February 1929: Espacenet - Original document

    Concurrent with mass production and sales, you need ADVERTISEMENT.

    I have not come across any advertisement before 1929. I know of 6 different ones, ranging between September 1929 and June 1930. Does anyone here have owned or seen copies of advertisements earlier than 1929? I simply want to know. If you own it, or have a link, or have seen it somewhere, please post.

    Some watches are made of silver or gold - precious metals that were regulated at the time and that needed to be stamped ("essayed") for import/export with a marking unique to a particular year. Watches were also donated as gifts or as recognition to loyal employees. They sometimes bore the date this gift was made. Has anyone here come across a watch that was dedicated to someone (inscription on the back case) earlier than 1929? There is one here, but undated, although the seller mentions circa 1928 with no backing facts: #5501 Rare 18K Harwood – world’s 1st Automatic watch c1928 – A Trebor's Vintage Watches Has anyone seen or owned a silver or gold case with hallmarks, essay stamps or "Poinçon de Maitre" markings dating the case before 1929? I have not. If you have, please post. These are true indicators of production dates for a whole watch (not movement only...).

    Shares of the French company he used to finance his adventure are dated May 1929. He had a UK company perhaps created in 1928, but I have no data on it. Does anyone here have any other shares or company documents dated before 1929?

    Based on this business model (financing 1929, then case and bezel patents 1929, then case manufacturing 1929, then advertisements 1929), you are looking at production and sales beginning in 1929. Does anyone have anything material (ads, shares, docs authored by Harwood, by Fortis, by Blancpain, case markings or dedications) that offer hints to the contrary?

    He patented it first (applied 1923 - granted 1924). He will never lose that title, thankfully. But when did he actually mass produce? Everything I read leads to 1929. Articles sometimes refer to 1926. This is Basel. One should not assume that production had begun then. In his 1951 article, Harwood himself acknowledges he could not have gone to production before 1928. All other facts and data overwhelmingly point to 1929. I am hoping someone out there owns something or knows something that will point to production before 1929. Not an article written by someone who is "approximate" in their dating or uses vague terminology like "introduced", or circa.

    Thanks for your generosity in sharing anything that will shed light on this.
     

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