Harwood

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by beta21, Dec 14, 2004.

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  1. beta21

    beta21 Registered User

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    Hi,
    I'm mostly into PW's but i like old automatics, too. So when I came across this one I just had to buy it...

    My question is: I always was under the impression Harwood had his automatics based upon AS ebauches, and even let AS build the automatic attachment, but this one is marked "Blancpain". Is there anybody who can elaborate on this?
     
  2. beta21

    beta21 Registered User

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    Hi,
    I'm mostly into PW's but i like old automatics, too. So when I came across this one I just had to buy it...

    My question is: I always was under the impression Harwood had his automatics based upon AS ebauches, and even let AS build the automatic attachment, but this one is marked "Blancpain". Is there anybody who can elaborate on this?
     
  3. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    #3 doug sinclair, Dec 14, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2017
    Peter,

    In answer to a question on the Historic Watch & Clock message board recently, I posted the following which is from a book in my library which was presented to me by the manufacturer of a well known automatic wind wtch line who shall remain nameless, but if you need to know, I can tell you privately.

    With luck you may receive replies from some who have more intimate knowledge of these.
     
  4. J.Rogers

    J.Rogers Guest

    It appears that someone has relaunched the basic Harwood look using a very modified base ETA movement.

    Princton Watch appears to be offering these at a very pricey amount.

    Harwood watch went out of business in 1931 and the basic patent expired.

    The original design was fraught with design and quality problems. They were popular in England for awhile, then other houses took the basic self-wind concept and moved forward.

    I almost bought one of these a few years ago in a non-working condition, but could find no one at the time who would be willing to tackle the project to return it to a working condition (Way beyond my capability)

    The idea was really clever with no crown stem the bezel movement was suppose to do it all, from winding to setting the hands.

    The Harwood designedr as far as I know is credited with the self winding movement
     
  5. Jeff Hess

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    Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote for HR watches magazine about the claims of many companies concerning the automatic watch.

    My facts are based on interviews with company execs, offical company websights and my own experiences in collecting buying and selling vintage watches..

    "But just who was it that invented the Automatic watch anyway? Most agree that Englishman John Harwood was the main protaginest and without a doubt the genius behind the invention. (Of course, the first pocket watch with an automatic mechaism was invented by Abraham Perrelet in 1778, a feat still touted today by the company that bears the Perrelet name)

    Harwoods invention, though, first patented in 1924 was greeted with little interest by the big Swiss manufacturers. Mr. Harwood, by most accounts was undercapitalized and scurried about to make deals with other manufacturers and brands. He used a base caliber AS (A. Schild) movement and initially did all of the rather complicated (for its day) underdial work himself. But he needed investors and financial support so he turned to a few friends and business contacts in his home country of England and did some wheeling and dealing and with the help of Blancpain, his investors and Walter vogt of Fortis, production started. Many watch companies got into the act and indeed Harwood movements have been seen with names such as Blancpain, Fortis, Wyler and Selza have shown up on the market as well as a few other unconfirmed names. A scant few years later, thousands of patents were granted for improvements on the automatic watch and such oddball names were producing different automatic watches with such names as WigWag, Rolls, and Autorist. Fortis even produced the Rolls, which was a rather unusual wristwatch that had an unusual “automatic” winding system invented by Leon Hatot. (These are highly collectable and can be found occasionally with the signature written phonetically “ATO” on them). Some of them had odd escapements with long clacking counter weights fitted onto a tiny ladies sized movement that was further fitted into a rectangular case. These did not work well. Of course in 1931 another company with an odd name, ROLEX, came out with one that did work out pretty well. The Perpetual.)

    But Walter Vogt of Fortis, a true man of vision, was one of the money men who embraced the idea of the automatic wrist watch and put forth his companies assets and indeed its future by embracing the concept.

    Etc. etc.

    Btw, I am working on an agreement in principal (verbal) for HR watches magazine and InSync magazine (and perhaps others) to provide free samples to NAWCC message board members. More on that later...

    Jeff Hess
     
  6. beta21

    beta21 Registered User

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    Thanks to all for sharing your insights!
    I notice there is one offered on ebay that has a slightly different mvt compared to mine. The shape of the bridges are not identical. Maybe this reflects different makers? I will disassemble mine and look closely, especially on the hands setting parts. Will be back with pics of that if anybody cares to see.
     
  7. harold

    harold Registered User
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    This is my Harwood. The inventor also invented the Autorist. I will try to get both pictures on for you.
     
  8. harold

    harold Registered User
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    Autorist
     
  9. beta21

    beta21 Registered User

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    Harold, nice watches. do you have a scan of the Harwood mvt as well?
     
  10. harold

    harold Registered User
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    Here is a picture of my Harwood movement. Needs to be brightened. If you need anothe picture, when I get my camera back form repair, I will try to send you a better picture.
     
  11. harold

    harold Registered User
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    Here is a better picture with the back of the case.
     
  12. beta21

    beta21 Registered User

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    These different shapes of the bridges reflects the different makers, doesn't it??
    I've looked at six different pics of mvt's in my books and on the internet, and all are like yours, Harold. Mine must be a later model, since one of the problems Harwood encountered was the friction adjustments screw on the slipping coupling was coming loose. My mvt has a solution to that problem with a sqare screw head and locking spring.
     
  13. Hi Peter,

    you'll find some information in my archive:
    http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&uswk&Harwood

    The movements were designed and made by AS. Most watches were completed by Fortis, but also some 140,000 by Blancpain, having had traditionally business relations to AS.

    All samples I've seen until now were signed Harwood on the dial, but on the movement either Blancpain or Harwood Selfwinding Watch Co Ltd.

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
     
  14. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    #14 Montrealgpf1, Nov 6, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
    Old thread, I know, but my reply is directly on point and related to the last comment here.

    Mr. Ranfft, a big fan of yours and avid user of bid-fun. FYI, I am in possession of a Harwood with "Perpetual" on the dial rather than Harwood. It is a chrome based case, with the US patent stamped on the movement. It has what appears to be the original band as well.

    https://mb.nawcc.org/webkit-fake-url://cffc76a6-56dd-4806-9a0a-c8a71089ddf4/application.pdf 285914.jpg

    If you care to note, I also have a gold cased one (two-tone) with glass back (see-through) also with the US patent. Presumably a rare salesman's example.

    https://mb.nawcc.org/webkit-fake-url://b04385e0-ff1f-4da3-b421-9bad154dd6be/application.pdf 285915.jpg 285913.jpg
    https://mb.nawcc.org/webkit-fake-url://C1884886-E8C7-47CC-8C49-95FFB01FDC1E/unknown.jpg

    I am the proud owner of 6 different Harwoods, which together cover 4 case metals, 3 case shapes and most importantly 3 of his 4 patents (US, Swiss and French). He did not seem to produce any watch under the UK patent.

    One question I have is this: AS movements were not necessarily known to be limited to 12-hour power reserves. I see some early examples at 31-hours (e.g. AS 475). Yet, the Harwood which uses AS 350 according to most sources, is purportedly only able to load a 12-hour reserve. First, is this correct? Second, is it due to the uni-directional cranking of the rotor (coupled with its narrow displacement)?
    :screwball:




    - - - Updated - - -

    Old thread, I know, but my reply is directly on point and related to the last comment here.

    Mr. Ranfft, a big fan of yours and avid user of bid-fun. FYI, I am in possession of a Harwood with "Perpetual" on the dial rather than Harwood. It is a chrome based case, with the US patent stamped on the movement. It has what appears to be the original band as well.

    https://mb.nawcc.org/webkit-fake-url://cffc76a6-56dd-4806-9a0a-c8a71089ddf4/application.pdf

    If you care to note, I also have a gold cased one (two-tone) with glass back (see-through) also with the US patent. Presumably a rare salesman's example.

    https://mb.nawcc.org/webkit-fake-url://b04385e0-ff1f-4da3-b421-9bad154dd6be/application.pdf
    https://mb.nawcc.org/webkit-fake-url://C1884886-E8C7-47CC-8C49-95FFB01FDC1E/unknown.jpg

    I am the proud owner of 6 different Harwoods, which together cover 4 case metals, 3 case shapes and most importantly 3 of his 4 patents (US, Swiss and French). He did not seem to produce any watch under the UK patent.

    One question I have is this: AS movements were not necessarily known to be limited to 12-hour power reserves. I see some early examples at 31-hours (e.g. AS 475). Yet, the Harwood which uses AS 350 according to most sources, is purportedly only able to load a 12-hour reserve. First, is this correct? Second, is it due to the uni-directional cranking of the rotor (coupled with its narrow displacement)?
    :screwball:


     
  15. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Excellent
    You are catching up to me
    I have about 8 including the Autorist, and the special Blancpain model with the revolving bezel on the back, ranging from 18kt gold, gold plated and even a silver cases with brass back and bezel.

    John Harwood, is with out doubt the inventor of the "genesis" of self winding wristwatches.

    Just to correct a small previous error on this thread

    Indeed Perrelet invented the first self winding pocket watch in 1777 (not 1778) it was a side weight mechanism - (unlike Harwood's) winding only in one direction.
    Hubert Sarton is now accepted as having made the first bi-directional winding (rotor) pocket watch in 1778
     
  16. Accutronitis

    Accutronitis Registered User

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    Great info Adam ! How many watches would you say you have in your collection ?
     
  17. Accutronitis

    Accutronitis Registered User

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    Hey beta21 i like your member name, i take it by your name you own one of these ?

    View attachment 1674
     
  18. Adam Harris

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  19. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Impressive. Just acquired the Blancpain with bezel at back last week (on its way). I have read somewhere that all Blancpains had a bezel at back. This is inaccurate. I have a round Blancpain with bezel in front. The bezel at back seems to have been fitted on square watches. Is yours squarish as well? See mine:

    286035.jpg 286037.jpg

    If you had a choice between the Autorist or the Wyler 1931 auto, same price, same condition, which would you pick? 286036.jpg
     
  20. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Of course only on square (oblong) version - NO need on the round, it is only because it is oblong, that the rotating bezel is on the back.

    Autorist versus Wyler? Autorist for certain

    I have them all except the WIG WAG version 2
     
  21. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Hey guys, juts putting this out there for consideration, without much research. I came across a Harwood movement for sale on eBay that appears to bare a Spanish patent number. No reason why this would be counter-fit. I am well aware of the US and Swiss (Fortis) patents and the French (Blancpain) one. They were all commercialised, unlike the UK patent which appears to have never been used on a movement `for sale`. I just never came across any Spanish patent. I tried, but was not successful, to search for Spanish patents for Harwood. Any knowledge out there?

    See eBay: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/182116003934?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

    and pic.

    291796.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #22 Adam Harris, Jan 12, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    CONGRATULATIONS

    A rare find.
    Yes a Spanish patent exists, as did a number vof Spanish Harwood Adverts.

    I have the patent, the adverts and the watch.

    So its surely NOT counterfeit.

    Enjoy
    Adam
     
  23. gatorcpa

    gatorcpa Registered User

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    #23 gatorcpa, Jan 12, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Harwood had a separate sales organization in Barcelona, Spain called CHIRA -- or Compañía Harwood Ibérica de Relojes Autocuerda.

    In English, Harwood Self-Winding Watch Company of Iberia (Spain/Portugal).

    Here is a clearer picture of a working CHIRA sold Harwood movement:

    View attachment 1675
    http://www.todocoleccion.net/relojes-antiguos-automaticos/john-harwood-watch-1929-1931-c-h-i-r-patente-espanola~x34391199

    View attachment 1676

    This one has the bezel at the rear of the watch.

    I can't find anything on the Spanish patent. Could have been more of trademark protection, or records could have been destroyed in the war that closely followed the introduction of this watch.

    Hope this helps,
    gatorcpa
     
  24. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    A FULL Spanish patent exists - I own it, it may be the only copy left, as none at the European Patent Office. Took me months to obtain.

    There are a number of adverts too, I think I have about 5.

    Its a rare piece.
    A
     
  25. gatorcpa

    gatorcpa Registered User

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    Good to know that someone found one.

    There are 3 in the link above. How about pictures of the ones not included there?

    Agreed!
    gatorcpa
     
  26. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    My contribution to the history of horology for 2019:

    On the subject of whether Harwood invented the automatic wristwatch, a few competing names are mentioned above. Glycine's Eugene Meylan came out mid-1930 with the production of his caliber 35 with the add-on (removable) automatic module. Frey then produced his pendulum watch in late 1930. Harwood-Fortis replied with Autorist mid-1931 (although a patent was requested in France in July 1930, which could place his watch before Frey's if we are to accept that the mention "Pat. applied for" on the movement of the Autorist instead refers to patent 699159FR (applied for by the Société de Recherches Scientifiques et d'Exploitation d'Inventions). Interestingly, Fortis produced a 2012 booklet for its jubilee (http://www.fortis-watches.com/upload/Jubliaeumsbuch/FORTIS-100-Years-Jubilee-Book.pdf) that shows at page 15 an Autorist movement with that patent # on it... That movement would have been produced after February 1931. However, all those movements that only have Pat. Applied for on them may then have been produced just after July 1930...

    The Wig-wag #1 then came out mid to late 1931 under the Mars and Bulova brand names, after Louis Muller's La Champagne registered patent # 529785 in Germany (and applied for a patent in Switzerland which only got issued in April 1932 under #153875). Muller also applied for a patent in the US in Nov. 1931, which dates several Wig-wags to the few months immediately thereafter as they have "Us Pat. applied for" on them.

    Hatot-Blancpain manufactured the Rolls (3 different sizes as they targeted the women's market) between 1932 and 1934. Movements say Pat. pending, which dates them after February 1930 (their priority date in France) but according to Blancpain production only began in 1932.

    Then followed Cortebert in 1933 (not well known out there, but I have seen the watch and the related patent was issued in December 1932). After that, Muller/ La Champagne again registered another patent in Switzerland (166843CH) in January 1934 and watches were sold thereafter under the name Aster (movement 28-20) or Bulova (movement 13AP).

    Finally, the Wig-wag #2 by Bulova came out later in 1934 after patent # 169089CH was issued (also sold under Bucherer, Lucerne or Libela brand names). That watch is amazing as the movement and dial are boxed in together and they sit over another base or case and are held there by 4 hinged levers that allow the cased movement to move back and forth and crank the spring.

    Amazingly, all of these watches were produced before Rolex's Oyster Perpetual (which they claim was the first watch out of the gates...).

    What I am really writing about today is another recent discovery of mine which can potentially disturb what we know of the 1925-35 era.

    Driva Watch Company requested a patent in Switzerland in July 1925 (114947CH) that was issued in May 1926. The company went bankrupt shortly after 1929. Yet, it produced automatic watches showing that same patent # under the name Novix or Veglia. It is then fair to consider that Driva potentially manufactured these watches as early as 1926, 2 years before Harwood. Granted, Harwood's patents predate those of Driva, but it is possible that Driva actually won the race to actually be the first to commercialise an automatic wristwatch... If you Google 'Novix' and 'Driva' together, you will find auction sites that will give you a few Novix watches still in existence today.

    Reminds me of the 1969 race for the first chrono automatic... What do you consider to be more important? First to get a patent? First to show a prototype at Basel fair? First to advertise? First to start mass production? First to ship and sell a watch? First to have done all that AND be successful commercially?

    I have no other information on Driva or their production pre-bankruptcy. Perhaps NAWCC could help?
     
  27. Adam Harris

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    Please. There is NO doubt that John Harwood was the inventor of the automatic wrist watch. Even Hans Willsdorf of ROLEX had to admit that and make a public written apology in 1962

    John Harwood IS the GENESIS of every self-winding watch that followed.

    His patent was applied in 1923, and granted 1924. First shipments were 1926. some 9 years prior to Rolex, and 4 years ahead pf Leon Hatot.

    Harwood spent a major part of his life fighting Rolex for his due recognition (which he got in a public apology) Lets not denounce or detract from this ingenious inventor of the First Self-Winding Watch.

    If you want to research the history of the "Self-Winding Wristwatch" - please go to YouTube and listen to the 1 hour webinar I wrote and gave (The Beginning Of The Self-Winding Wristwatch)
    Adam R. Harris

    PS - Where do you think ROLEX got the name "PERPETUAL" from?? Yes that was John Harwood's American venture company.
     
  28. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    I also own several Harwoods and love his place in horology. That said, I have to look at the facts.

    First shipments were not 1926. He was at the Basel Fair in 1926. Mass production and shipments began in 1928. He admits so himself in an article he wrote (can post later). He states he had a prototype in 1923 and it wasn’t until more than 4 years later that he fixed production issues before mass production could start.

    References to 1928:

    Vintage Harwood Watches For Sale | Vintage Watches

    First Automatic Watch - Harwood in the '20s

    Harwood Watches - History

    He will not lose the title re patent that was eventually mass produced. Enough public info exists to settle the issue. As a reult, he is THE inventor.

    However, he may have had competition re “production” between 1926 and 1928, which is the subject of my post.
     
    Tomxhar likes this.
  29. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    #29 Adam Harris, Jan 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
    1) John Harwood applied his patent in 1923 and it was granted 1924.
    This is fact NOT myth
    2) There is NO other patent for a self winding wristwatch prior to that. And certainly NOT by anyone you mentioned.
    That is fact - NOT Myth!
    3) Fortis started shipping Harwoods self-winding (ADDING WRIST)watch in Q4 1926.
    This is No myth its a fact

    Please give one piece of hard evidence that anyone had "production" prior to even 1930 - not withstanding 1926-1928!!

    I have all those links and dozens more. I also have HARWOOD shares and every patent that he took out (including Spanish)

    John Harwood WAS the Inventor of the first MASS produced self-winding (ADDING WRIST)watch, by about 4 years (ATO being next)
    Fortis shipped in Basel 1936 the first pieces albeit hand made.
    Totally Harwood (and the 2 plants) made 34,000 HARWOODS

    And I do NOT forget Leon Leroy self-winding(ADDING WRIST) watch of 1922 - YES prior to HAEWOOD - but only 4 are known to have been manufactured - still putting HARWOOD as the GENESIS of all self-winding wristwatches.

    PS - The owner of the first link you give was my mentor!
    PPS - And I have the article he wrote
    Adam
    EDIT
    BOLD = ALREADY STATED WRISTWATCH
    (ADDED) = ADDED WRISTWATCH TO HELP the xxxxxx
     
  30. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Harwood was far from the first maker of a self winding watch...in fact by about 150 years.
     
  31. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Please try to stay objective and NOT emotional
    I clearly stated WRISTWATCHES.

    I know well that Sarton manufactured a rotor design in 1778 and Perrelet made a side winder in 1777

    This is wristwatch section
    And I added wristwatch in my explanation

    ::SIGH::
     
  32. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Anyway. I am out of this thread.
    ENJOY
    Adam
     
  33. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    As I said, he has the first patent. Please read my posts carefully before getting emotional...
     
  34. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    So we agree on patent. Excellent
    Now please post who shipped automatic wristwatches:
    1) Prior to 1926 - as did HARWOOD (FORTIS) do?
    2) Who else shipped prior to 1930/ATO ROLLS

    Its fine to pop up as a "Blog On Horology" - but please post your research and blogs.
    This topic has been researched and discussed ad - nausea - and no one has ever shown anyone shipped prior to HARWOOD on the "center-weight" automatic wristwatch.

    I have blogs, webinars, articles, debates on this subject.
    I also believe I have more ephemera than anyone on the self-winding wristwatch.

    Emotional? Yes.
    So now I am out of here until you post some decent evidence
    Best Regards
    Adam

    NOTE - This topic is WRISTWATCHES
     
  35. Montrealgpf1

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    Harwood is discussed a lot, yes. But no-one has ever discussed Driva. Not ad nausea, not the least bit, not ever. Their patent was meaningless, like many Bulova, Barbezat or Jacot patents that went no-where, until someone happened to stumble on existing watches, which I did. I am just exploring a hypothesis that no-one raised nor put to rest before. I am not seaking or hoping to out-rank Harwood, I am just curious about a watch that I know exists ((*) Novix, Driva Watch Co., Movement No. 114947 & 83333 DEM, Case No. 1003, 25 x 38 mm, circa 1925) and has a patent date that predates Harwood’s production by 3 years.

    [ Horology ] Veglia/Novix/Driva Watch CO, NO. 1119, approx.. 1925 One of the earliest mechanism wrist-watches - ungetragen almost - with patent

    Deux montres à masse oscillante dont une du 'Perpetual Self winding Watch

    Regarding Harwood, attached is the page from his article where he says 5+1 years elapsed before production.

    Regarding Driva, you seem to believe that things did not happen unless stats exist to prove they did. At that rate, you would think that I never was 2 years old. After all, I have no picture of me in 1971 and I have no data on my weight and height back then... On a personal note, I am not just “popping out” on a blog. I have been collecting and researching automatics and their patents for as long as you have. I am just a little less public than you are.

    I was writing here hoping that estute and objective watch affonciados may have information to share on Driva. I understand from your post that you currently lack the interest or curiosity about Driva and are happy with your position about Harwood. I thought as the guest curator you might have had the opportunity in the past to look into Driva before reaching conclusions on Harwood, and would have information to share.

    Curious to see if others will chime in. Bobbee? Mr. Ranfft?

    I have Hampel and Schiffer’s book on automatics, as well as Chapuis-Jacquet, but they are silent on Driva. I do not own Kathleen Pritchard’s book and cannot investigate Driva through that source; so if someone has that book please share info on Driva watch company and their Novix watch brand.

    406715E8-4DC8-4093-9C87-8A525E1CB2E3.jpeg
     
  36. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    No mention of Novix in Pritchard under Driva and no listing under Novix either. Yours must be scarce to say the least.-Cort
     
  37. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Thanks for looking for me/us. This is not mine, just research result out of curiosity. I am a Harwood fan and like Adam collected many but, like archeologists, I am open to finding something new even if it outranks what I already own...

    You have to admit that an already established watch company (since 1924), which already has financial backing and equipment and which also authored this recent patent, may have had the ability to deliver on this 1926 patent before 1928... Hence my interest. No hasty conclusion, no conclusive evidence to show for, as I only landed on llinks of existing samples rather than records and stats, but a legitimate question considering...

    But this all begs a question as to what Harwood was the first at. Patent? Yes. Production? Perhaps not... Just asking...
     
  38. Hawk53

    Hawk53 Registered User

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    "Curious to see if others will chime in. Bobbee? Mr. Ranfft?"

    Can't speak to Mr. Ranfft, but Bobbee hasn't been around for years.....
     
  39. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I too am more than open to new discoveries, and indeed have been "changed" on a number of occasions - including Sarton.
    BUT
    I require proof, not speculation.
    I have studied, researched, written blogs and webinars on "The Beginning Of The Automatic Wristwatch" over about 10 years. That does not make them bullet proof, but with such intense scrutiny at that time, most if not all discrepancies were found and happily ammended.

    Now its also strange to me that what are the two "bibles" of Horology (Kathleen Pritchards book - that I own) mention nothing 'Driva OR Novix - why?
    Maybe like me, she missed it in 5+ years and 3000 pages of research.
    As are all other books "silent" or non existent??

    Post some credible links, that prove HARWOOD (John) was not the inventor and first patent of the mass produced self-winding wristwatch.
    Until such time - lets not try to steal this mans true glory in the history of HOROLOGY
    Adam
     
  40. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    We agree, Adam. I am just finding several anomalies lately that have not been documented much and I am just seeking info to the extent it is available. Forums are ideal for that, at least I thought.

    Driva and Novix are mentioned here, but this is not a lot to work with: Mikrolisk - The horological trade mark index

    Apologies if I offended the memory of a past member who did not post since 2016.
     
  41. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    I am pleased we could work out BOTH our intentions.
    I am not against rediscovering HOROLOGY indeed I did it a few times with Eberhard verus GRUEN hermetic
    And if I had my Pritchards books at hand, I would have checked it.

    The "past member" (Bobbee) and all his incarnations are permanently banned.
    And should he return, I home moderators act accordingly as he is now banned on every watch site that we all used to debate on
    A
     
  42. Barney Green

    Barney Green Registered User

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    Adam,
    I don't know if this is known already, but the Compangnie des Montres Driva (Driva Watch Co.) was founded July 23rd, 1924 in La-Chaux-De-Fonds in Switzerland. It was run by Louis-René-Henri Hirsch and situtated in the Rue Commerce 15. At least until 2014 a succeeding company called Driva S.A. was in the hands of a Mr. Hirsch. The company registered a number of trademarks, which Novix was one of.
    If it would be of interest I could reveal more information about the company within the next weeks.
    Barney
     
  43. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Hi Barney
    No, I dont personally know of that company or its history. Then again I dont know of thousands of such companies.

    I am personally interested in both the beginning of the wristwatch and beginning of self-winding wristwatches.
    I am interested in patents and innovations surrounding that

    Regards
    a
     
  44. Barney Green

    Barney Green Registered User

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    Would be interesting to see which patent they claim for the watch.
    Driva's patent # CH114947 is about an autowinding mechanism to be used in automobiles if I interperet the french writing correctly. This is the only patent they filed in 1925 (granted 1926).all others came later. BTW the trademark Novix was registered 1930, so the watches mentioned in the earlier posts were not built in 1925 I guess.
     
  45. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    Yes, a car clock
    Can be seen her - thanks
    Espacenet - Original document
     
  46. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    They were using the 1925 patent on the watch, not their 1930-32 patent (150660 CH) which was obtained when they became bankrupt.

    Watch movement below.

    The refernce to 83333 is to a patent that has nothing to do with the watch (pendant fixture for picket watches). It had been obtaine by Beaulieu Watch Co in 1920. Eugene Meylan was also known for using bogus patent #s on his movements.

    upload_2019-1-25_18-7-16.jpeg
     
  47. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    More on Driva and bankruptcy here: History of Driva Watch

    Trademarks or patents can be requested anytime before or after a product is manufactured. Those with more serious commercialising plans will do so before production. Others only do so after realizing that their sales prove that their idea is successful and is deserving of registration. Some could not wait the 2-3 years it sometimes took between request and granting of patent. They went ahead with manufacturing with “Pat. pending” or “Pat. applied for”. Meylan/Glycine, Frey/Perpetual, Autorist and even Mars are all examples of companies that went ahead before some patents were issued. Patents on a movement are good to establish floors, that is, dates where the watch was not manufactured before. In this case, the Novix could not have been manufactured before May 1926. It could have, however, been manufactured before the company took care of registering the Novix brand (after all, it was protected by the patent already obtained).

    Names are also less in need of protection than ideas. If I had a choice, I would protect my unique invention long before a meaningless name that I can change anytime...
     
  48. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    This is a side weight design, that we saw on Bulova.
    What is the patent number?
    Where did you get 1926?
    Thanks
     
  49. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Patent is not Bulova. It is Driva (1925) marked as CH114947. 1926 is the date this patent was issued (May 26, 1926 according to Espacenet).

    It is pedometer style, like Frey (applied 1930) and Muller La Champagne (applied 1932).

    It does resemble the Bulova 143764 from 1929 (Espacenet - Original document).

    The description of the Driva patent uses automobile on front page ("preferably to be used in automobiles"), but abandons any reference to cars in all other pages of the patent (see claims section) to describe it as a clock part (piece d'horlogerie) that winds automatically through the use of pivoting weight.
     
  50. Adam Harris

    Adam Harris Registered User
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    OK
    This patent is NOT for a wristwatch but for a car clock that was mounted (probably) in the center of the steering wheej

    It was applied July 1925 amd Granted May 1926
    Two years AFTER HARWOOD
    And Harwood was a wristwatch, not a car clock (which he did hold a patent for)

    This patent is for a side weight, and HARWOOD is termed a center weight, completely different
    The side weight was doomed to failure

    So still no evidence that anyone mass produced a self winding wristwatch prior to John Harwood in 1926.
    This is even accepted by Rolex (publicly)

    A
     

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