Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by Kevin Neathery, Nov 1, 2019.
Has anyone come across a private label Harwood automatic before?
There was a John Harwood who invented the self winding wrist watch
It is not a private label, it was a British watch company
Wikipedia has a bit about him
John Harwood (watchmaker) - Wikipedia
I looked on mikrolisk and found the company with the private label stared in 1926. So high chance it is correct. I double checked with a source at J&H auction house that they saw PL Harwood before, which was yes.
If thats on the dial its NOT a private label
That was the inventors name put on ALL HARWOOD watch dials
Harwood held the patent but he did not make the movements. The French ones were made by Blancpain. The movement though would still be a Harwood. It is like saying a watch with an ETA movement is not ETA unless it says it. In this case Solix is the name on the dial. "Solix Automatic" to be exact. The trade name Solix was registered in 1926. This fits in when the Harwood watches were being produced. The only Harwood I have at the moment has an original display back.
I really got NO idea your point
John Harwood was the inventor and the "genesis" of all automatic watches today.
Not ONLY did he design it - he even helped make them!
Its NOTHING like ETA who make an ebauche for many others to buy,
This was a movement designed by John Harwood, Patented in every country by Harwood and sols undwer his name or the "PERPETUAL" name which later ROLEX took
Its RIDICULOUS to compare the HARWOOD watch to an ETA movement
Please do some research.
The point was simple and you missed it. You seem to think that all Harwood watches were marked Harwood on the dial. Solix Automatic is on the dial. I deal more in pocket than wrist watches and another company name on the dial IS a private label. That is different than a licenced manufacturer making the movements and putting HARWOOD on the dial.
Before you go popping off about research I have been collecting for over 28 years. Joined the NAWCC at 16. Am involved in research for 4 companies along with direct research with Zenith SA. Please pay attention to my OP. I stated clearly I was looking for anyone knowing of a PL Harwood. Did I say Harwood was on the dial at any point.
You decided that it was some impossibility that a watch movement, case, and all was used as a form of ebauche for another company to put their name on the dial. Sounds very much like ETA selling movements to a company that puts their name on the dial.
Being that his company failed there is no real idea if he would have had the movements more mass produced as ebauche for other companies. But a Solix dial seems to point to the possibility.
Post a photo of the watch dial, then we can discuss if original.
2nd your analogy to HARWOOD like ETA is both bollox and indeed insulting to the man accepted by everyone to be the inventor and genesis of self-winding wristwatches.
I dont care if you have been collecting for 10000 years.
What research have you done on HARWOODS? Hoew many you own? How many patents did he have? Post adverts?
Yes his company failed - after 34,000 watches. In same period ROLEX made 9000 watches - NONE being self-winding.
Yes he failed - but his legacy survived.
Go do some research on the beginning of the wristwatch, and dont demean one of the greatest HOROLOGISTS.
ETA - INDEED - ::SIGH::
Again you like to fail to read. I stated I own one with a original display back. As to needing a picture, if you fail to understand a simple question a picture would be worthless. Do you intend to do a dial off inspection of the watch through a picture? Can you tell me the condition of the movement with a picture of the back on?
My intention in my post was simple. To confirm if there were any PL Harwood watches. Being that you have failed to answer that indicates you do not know. I got the answer I needed from a reputable auction house. I am sure I would never have actually gotten an answer from you. You would rather act offended at the possibility of a great inventor possibly not being given credit despite his name being used multiple times than to actually converse about the watch in question.
You sir are why other forums are more popular and more visited. Your "know more than you" attitude turns away collectors. Not just from the forum but the NAWCC. I mentioned this type of behavior before to Tom but obviously it is alive and well in the wristwatch section. Good night sir.
Thats great you got your answer.
Happy for you
This link has several examples.
The Truth Behind The Myth - The Final Story Read more: http://wristwatchforums.proboards.com/thread - Page 9
The company is still in business
Harwood Watches - Home
Hi Les, While that more recent company used the name, it is a different business. Much like the reuse of more familiar company names, like Ball Watch Co. The name is bought and used. Funny but I believe these used ETA movements.
I was wrong about Harwood being a British company
Harwood watches were made by Fortis in Switzerland
The Harwood and the Fortis websites agree on that
There is no mention of Harwood on the ETA website
Harwood Watches - History
ETA - The Motorist of Time
John Harwood and the HARWOOD/PERPETUAL watch company was BRITISH
FORTIS and BLANCPAIN made the movements and assembled the watches.
John Harwood was the owner of the patent and allowed FORTIS/BLANCPAIN to distribute his watches under his licence in their respective countries.
He also set up a compant called PERPETUAL in USA that HE distributed.
He set up companies in UK, FRANCE and USA.
I have HARWOOD FRENCH shares
Of course it has NOTHING to do with ETA!
They NEVER used ETA movements.
I believe he means the modern "Harwood" branded watches now made by Boksburg gmbh, which are definitely ETA movements.
You are right, I was thinking about where the watches were made rather than John Harwood
Do you pay attention to context? The ETA movements were used in the modern recreation of the Harwood watches.
Adam are you Horologist007 on WUS? Thoth on WUS here. I do remember you being a wealth of info on there if you are one in the same.
Yes I am that person
and YES I pay attention.
The modern so called HARWOOD has NOTHING to do with the original John Harwood or his son in any way.
Its an "abomination" to both horology and the great man himself.
The OPs watch is using an original HARWOOD "bumper" movement patent no 106583.
That had nothing to do with ETA.
John Harwood was awarded the British Horological Society Gold Medal one of just seven awarded in past 80 years
HERE is one of mine - 14Kt Gold - MINT
I have the original box
Here is the American version "PERPETUAL"
and its box and instructions:
And Finally published Sunday June the 10th 1956 - The ROLEX adver and apology to John Harwood for claiming "they invented the automatic wristwatch"
Something John Harwood achieved 10 years PRIOR to ROLEX
Good to see you again.
Yes the original watch in question is the original Harwood patent with a non Harwood marked dial. It does have the indicator hole as it should. I would post pictures but rules state no. The dial is of sufficient age to be correct for the watch.
The modern watches with the name are an obvious attempt to "cash in" on the name. Some may see them as an "homage" to the original. But have no connection to the original.
Thank You - appreciated
I do remember you had a display back one as well, I believe. I never did get any further Harwoods for the collection.
Truly beautiful examples you have.
Yes _ do have one with a display back
Its needs serviced, But I have not done it (sad) - Its a very "strange" piece
That is the one I remember. It is the "Strange" watches I find most interesting.
I still have my one Harwood in the collection. Display back as well.
If you ever are interested in discussing a odd Georges Favre Jecot (Zenith Dial) bezel wind watch let me know. I know you have a taste for the unusual, ingenious, and rare.
Let us not forget Spain!
Oh! I have that and a few others.
I also have the Spanish Patent - that I doubt any others have
Pics #1-2-3: Solix watches with Harwood case and bezel (presumably Fortis movement with Harwood's automatic wind mechanism)
Pics #4: Harwood case and bezel and no dial label.
Pic#5 and #6: Perpetual watch brand with Harwood case and bezel (presumably Fortis movement with Harwood's automatic wind mechanism)
Perpetual also housed Frey pendulum movements 1-2 years later.
Selza is also said to have hosted a Fortis movement with Harwood self-wind. They owned the Organa brand (pic #7)
I believe these are all forms of "private labels" as alluded to above (except #4, which is Harwood himself I assume).
Selza confirmed by Hampel/Schiffer as being involved in producing Harwood watches. They do not specify if they did so as PL but it is interesting that Harwood is said to have retained contractual rights to issue production licenses to other watch companies than Fortis.
Solix watches were produced by Selza Watch Company.
Were watches with display back common in the 30s? Were they salesmen’s examples? Something else?
Honestly I don't know. Of the Harwood watches, Adam's and Mine are the only ones I know of. As to other brands, I would not know but I don't come across them in my regular searching. I have a solid gold Juvenia with an 18k solid gold movement that has a display back but that dates to the late 60s early 70s. I know Zenith used a clear cover over some of their movements but this was a safeguard against dust and moisture and still had a solid case back over it.
In pocket watches it was not uncommon to see watches in display/salesman's cases. In the earlier decades of wristwatches I believe it is rather uncommon. But when you are marketing the first automatic wristwatches it would make sense to have some that people could see the movement as a salesman's type of display.
Here is the third one you will know of, then. Pics are fuzzy, but it is a 157.. patent from US.
VERY, very rare!
What we dont know, is if they started life like that or a mosre recent modification
What book is this anyway??
This one. 352 pages, 500+ pics. 200 early automatics that he knew of. Heinz Hampel is the author/collector and Schiffer is the editing company.
Automatic Wristwatches from Switzerland: Watches that Wind Themselves - $79.95 : Schiffer Publishing
The 3 of us need to go for beer some day, then.
How about in Spain?
Can you host, Adam?
I am a lot nicer in person than on a forum o
Thats one of the few books I have here with me.
Let me check it tomorrow.
Most of these books are written by clowns
LOL - ME TOO!!
Happy to host you in my apartment is Spain in 2020
I have 3 bedrooms on a golf course
I can't imagine someone out there so interested in Harwoods that he contemporarily made a few see-through backs and abandoned these watches for us to purchase randomly. These can only be originals, made for salesmen or Harwood's entourage when he met with the Harry Cutts and Walter Vogts of this world. Now that I think of it, are both of yours also bearing the US patent? Was this "show and tell" type of marketing perhaps directed to the US market? Just a thought...
I know all of John Harwoods prototypes - none had exhibition backs!
My feeling these were converted by owners or watchmakers (jobbers) to show off this very unique design.
None of the exhibition back ones are same dial/case designs,
Really its something we may never know. No one left to ask. Trust me I tried like hell.
Also no adverts show an exhibition back
Hello - reference to series production of Harwoods commencing in 1926 via Selza, Blancpain and Fortis here : https://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/encyclopaedia/history-of-watchmaking/history see 1926 (obvs lol)