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Hampden model 3 , 23 jewel, questions

Rodney Leon

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Special Railway, Model 3, 1898 date. 18 size. 23 jewels, open face, two tone, serial number. 1150087. The dial is a fancy dial but just between the numbers. Was this ok for Railroad use back then? If not what was the proper one? The H with the w over the co logo, what years were these used? Other movements I have looked at don’t have this (I guess it is an H with the w over co), under the safety pinion. If I find another Hampden dial will all 18 sizes fit the model 3? Thanks Rod

dial face.jpg s-l1600-8.jpg w.jpg
 

richiec

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Not a railroad expert but I doubt if the later standards would allow any distractions on the dial, that is a really nice watch though, the hands may have to be a little bolder also.
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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will all 18 sizes fit the model 3
No, the model three has different dial feet positions than the model 1 and 2.

Why change it, it looks great. Fancy dials were available at the time.

It doesn't have to be a railroad watch, just because it could have been. Maybe someone just wanted a really nice watch movement for everyday use. It's a beauty, congrats.
 

musicguy

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Rodney Leon

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No, the model three has different dial feet positions than the model 1 and 2.
Thanks Rick, I can not find much information on the model 3 Hampden saw one large post were someone was telling about the inside finishes not being up to standards as he was tearing them down . Seems they never came to a conclusion on that. Tried to find the post again but could not, to ask him about the model 3 if he knew. will keep searching. Thanks again for the information. Rod
 

Rick Hufnagel

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, to ask him about the model 3
Your probably referring to DeweyC post about his experiences diving into Hampden watches.

You have a really nice movement there, Rodney. It would certainly be above railroad standards at the time of it's manufacture. I don't know if the dial would have been accepted or not. Brotherhood dials depicted in the Hampden book have fancy designs, so maybe they were. It's Hampdens top of the line 18s movement at the time. The standard dial would have been double sunk glass enamel (but yours has a fancy dial).

ask him about the model 3
Edit:. 18s model 3 just means openfaced. (Winds at 12)
 
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musicguy

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someone was telling about the inside finishes not being up to standards as he was tearing them down
It believe it was DeweyC's post I would need to search for it
or he may comment himself. I don't think he was tearing down a 23 jewel one
though, so it may or may not relate to your HG watch.


EDIT I see Rick and I posted at the same time(actually Rick was a wee bit faster).


Rob
 

Rodney Leon

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Your probably referring to DeweyC
believe it was DeweyC's post I would need to search for
Thanks to both of you I will find it and read it again. Thanks for the information on the model 3. I have many Ball watches and have wondered why Ball was offering Dueber-Hampden for railroad use.18-size, 15-jewel Railway grade movements, signed Ball’s Standard Adjusted. When they had a 23 jewel models like this one at about the same time period. .Maybe to fancy for Ball at that time. Thanks again Rod

Add note: I found the article "Hampden Railway Takedown". Not on the 23 Jewel but the model 3. A good debate on the topic don't know if it was solved.
 
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George Frick

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Rodney. I have a Special Railway model 3, a New Railway model 3, and a Special Railway model 4.
All 18s 23j. These beautiful watches need take a back seat to no one!
You have a special dial, i am envious!
Congratulations.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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Rod,
I think your special railway is a bit later than the Hampden Ball watches.

While quite a few companies had high quality, high jeweled movements... The 17 jewel adjusted movement was still the railroad standard in 1898. (Iirc)

Hamilton 936 & 976 Ball watches.. 17 jewels. (The 976 may even be 16 I'm not very read up on Hamilton). These would have been around in 1898.

As much as we romanticize the railroad watch, it was a tool.

15-jewel Railway grade movements, signed Ball’s Standard Adjusted. When they had a 23 jewel models like this one
They didn't have a 23 jewel 18s movement then. With open faced: Ball used Hampden grades 59 & 60 (15 jewel) for high and superior grade. These are mid to late 1880s.

After that used the grade 68 which was a 17 jewel movement around 1890.

The special railway was a 17 jewel untill at least 1896. So the short answer is they didn't have movements like yours to offer while using the 15 jewel. Even at that, it's been written that Mr. Ball disliked excessive jeweling.

I'm enjoying this thread, thank you. You've made me go back over the Hampden Ball watches and it was interesting to compare dates with your watch and other special railways.

Here is one add from this forum I can actually link, dated 1896. 17 jewel special railway.
 
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Kent

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... The dial is a fancy dial but just between the numbers. Was this ok for Railroad use back then? If not what was the proper one? ...
Rod:

Nice watch!

As richiec posted in post #2, later rules would have prohibited the dial. But in 1898, dials don't seem to have been mentioned in the Railroad Time Service Watch Rules (two examples are shown below). Thus, it could be argued that the dial would have been accepted into Railroad Time Service.

I'd leave that dial on the watch, but if you're h*ll-bent on putting a railroad dial on the movement, one of the two shown below would be proper.

1898_Apr_1_Grand_Trunk_Inspection_Circular_No_23_Richard_Beauchamp.jpg 1898_March_2_Big_4_Rules_pg-27.jpg 18S_21J_Hampden_North_ American_Railway_1560512_EBU.jpg 18S_23J_SR_1189411.jpg
 

John Cote

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I'm with Kent. Keep the dial on the watch as found. There is no doubt in my mind that some RRs would have accepted this watch with the dial into service. We are all relatively sure that the watch could have been ordered like it is configured today. Why screw with it. It looks good.
 
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Rodney Leon

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I'd leave that dial on the watch
Keep the dial on the watch as found.
They didn't have a 23 jewel 18s movement then. With open faced: Ball used Hampden grades 59 & 60 (15 jewel) for high and superior grade. These are mid to late 1880s.
Thank you for all the great information I will keep the dial on, was just curious what a railroad dial from that period looked like. The earliest Ball I have is from 1902 (17jewel single roller). Thanks Kent for the images and write ups, and Rick for the Ball information it was good to know. I will now have to find a Hampden Ball in my search for another watch thanks to you. Ha.
 
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