Hampden Grade 104

StanJS

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I couldn't find one so I thought I'd start a thread to discuss the Hampden 104. There is a good thread on the 23J Special Railway here (moderator hint: add to the Past Pocket Watches Threads thread):

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=32615&highlight=hampden+104

where Tom McIntyre showed a nice 104 (bottom of the 1st page).

In an effort to save every nice watch that looks like it was once used as a hockey puck, I bought the below Hampden 104. It's dial has some serious issues and the regulator is definitely out of regulation. Other than that, it may be able to be salvaged.

Some statistics: There were 4300 of this model/grade made. Mine was from the next to last run circa 1918.

Three hours after the auction for the Hampden closed, I picked up a pretty decent dial off eBay. I bought it because it was the standard dial for the 104 shown in the 1917 Opskamp Nolting catalog on the elginwatches.org website:

http://elginwatches.org/scans/sales_catalogs/1917_Oskamp-Nolting/m_pg_DH03.html

I think it should be a contemporary dial. The only difference appears to be the block "Hampden" vs script "Hampden Watch Co." signature.

Any comments? And let's show those 104s!

Cheers,
Stan
 

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Bryan Eyring

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Re: Hampden - Model 5 - 23J Grade 104

....There is a good thread on the 23J Special Railway here (moderator hint: add to the Past Pocket Watches Threads thread):.....
Great thread and duly added to the Hampden Watch Co. section of this sticky. Please keep them coming!

Regards,
Bryan
 

Kent

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Re: Hampden - Model 5 - 23J Grade 104

Here's one of my No. 104s:
 

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Kent

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Re: Hampden - Model 5 - 23J Grade 104

Here's a couple more No. 104s.

As neat as it looks, the dial on serial number 1091884 really belongs on an earlier No. 104, specifically a Model 2 with a stepped balance cock. These have a larger diameter post and the dial has a correspondingly larger hole to accommodate it. Oh yeah, the gold-tone damaskeening is quite a bit faded, but its there nevertheless.

Since Stan, in the first post, called for a general discussion of Hampden's No. 104 grade, perhaps the moderator can remove "Model 5" from the title of the thread.

Would people want to see the 17-jewel grade No. 104 here, and thus request the removeal of "23J" as well?
 

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Fred Hansen

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Re: Hampden 23J Grade 104

I'd definitely be interested to see the 17J version.

Regardless of name this is a terrific thread and thanks to Stan for bringing it up.

As far as the dials for the watch in the original post though, I'd be suspect that the script signature dial with the full "Hampden Watch Co." signature is from a notably earlier vintage than the movement at 3 million serial range.

Fred
 

Fred Hansen

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Re: Hampden 23J Grade 104

Here's a pic of one I had a few months back, serial 1091941 which is only a few dozen from Kent's example above but interestingly has a good amount of difference to its damaskeen ...
 

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StanJS

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Re: Hampden 23J Grade 104

Great watches, guys. I was hoping to see the damascene pattern shown in the 1917 Opskamp Nolting catalog and John's left and Kent's right pictures show it (nice!).

Fred said: "As far as the dials for the watch in the original post though, I'd be suspect that the script signature dial with the full "Hampden Watch Co." signature is from a notably earlier vintage than the movement at 3 million serial range."

Please help me nail down contemporary dials for my watch. I want to get the watch correct for its day. I note John's 104 with a later serial number has a SS Dueber Hampden dial. Is that likely to be a possible dial?

Thanks everyone!

Cheers,
Stan

Moderator: This thread is developing nicely and we've seen some nice examples of Hampden 104s. Another candidate for the Past Pocket Watches Threads?
 
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Kent

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Stan:

I think that the DS AN R5MT script Hampden Watch Co. dial will be just fine!

Here's a No. 104, Model 2, 17-jewel HC version, Can we remove 23J from the title of the thread?
 

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rrwatch

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Re: Hampden 23J Grade 104

This may not be necessary, but:
DS AN R5MT = Double sunk Arabic numeral Red five minute track.
 

StanJS

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Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

I know nearly nothing about Hampdens but couldn't resist buying a 23J one on the cheap. I am trying to get my average jewel count up! I thought that the watch I bought was *the* grade 104. Thanks to everyone's great pictures, I now know better. I appreciate the education!

Thanks again for the help.

Cheers,
Stan
 

HenryB

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Actually the 104 is considered a distinct grade from the 104 SR(in flag) Grade in "The Hampden Watch Book" by Jim Herrick and Bob Arnold.

All the 104 grade is 23 J.
The 104 SR Grade (in Flag) are mainly 23 Jewel with a few "odd" (but interesting) variations.

Here is where the Chapter 149 Hampden database are on 104 and 104 SR (in Flag) Grades and Variations.

http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/db_resch/Hampden 16S-23J_E.htm

Since Kent's watch is a 17 Jewel Watch, here is the numbers in the database for this variation of the 104 SR In Flag) Grade.

104 SR (in Flag) - 16S-17J-OF-TT-Model 1-Adjusted-300 production - 2 runs
104 SR (In Flag)-16S-17J-HC-TT-Model 2 -Adjusted -1200 production - 3 runs

Of course Fred's watch is especially nice, and in line with a generality that a Hampden TT is Relatively Uncommon.

What does the SR mean ? - I am not sure, like to say special Railway, but NOT sure.

Both the 104 or 104 SR Grades are really interesting watches, and they got to be getting fairly scarce to find.
 

StanJS

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Henry,

Thanks for the detailed clarification. Very helpful!

Cheers,
Stan

PS. OK. Who has a 105 and wants to kick off a thread? I'd like to see one.
 

Kent

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Hi Tom:

It's nice to see the pictures of your watches, but it'd be nice if we had a thread to each of the No. 555 and No. 105 instead of mixing them in with this thread.

Perhaps the moderator can move these, starting new threads?

I have a few questions and observations.

Do the Montgomery dial and un-monogrammed case go with serial number 3,402,163 or with the grade No. 555 serial number 3,696,017?

Is the grade No. 555 serial number 3,696,017 lever-set or pendant-set?

Many of the grade No. 555 had single-sunk dials marked "Dueber-Hampden Chronometer" Do you know if this one had been changed? Or is this part of the mixed up pictures?

The case on the grade No. 555 appears to have a display back. Am I viewing this wrong? Or is this part of the mixed up pictures?

Thanks,
 

Fred Hansen

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Here's another 104 variant not shown yet, serial 1899800 with a very pretty 2-tone damaskeen ...
 

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rotifer

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NECRO!
Here's one I just got this week. Has everything I wanted - pristine case, hunter, Monty, tu-tone, 23 j. Just one off-color case screw to mar the perfection!
 

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Kent

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Nice!

Would you please share the serial number and whatever else is marked on the movement?


Thanks,
 

rotifer

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Serial number 1899193
Safety Pinion
Adjusted to Five Positions
Double roller
No. 104
SR in flag
Safety Barrel Patent No. 711476
The case is probably not original to the movement - extra case screw marks.
The sides of all the plates/bridges appear to be gold flashed.
 

Kent

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Thanks!
 

HenryB

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1899103

Very nice watch and yes it has it all.

Right now the serial ranges in the database for this variant are:

1795000-1795100
1899103-1899330
1899401-1899475

All of the above around 1903

403 estimated movements for the 104 (SR-in Flag),23 J, HC, adjusted 5 positions, TT
 

KipW

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Guys - I realize this is an old thread, but it seems appropriate to ask my dumb question here:
Exactly what are the differences between the 104 and 105 grades? From my attempts to find out on my own, it seems down to gold screws and "extra fine ruby and sapphire jewels", but somehow that just doesn't seem to be all there is to it. PLEASE - enlighten me! Thanks!
 

Nathan Moore

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Guys - I realize this is an old thread, but it seems appropriate to ask my dumb question here:
Exactly what are the differences between the 104 and 105 grades? From my attempts to find out on my own, it seems down to gold screws and "extra fine ruby and sapphire jewels", but somehow that just doesn't seem to be all there is to it. PLEASE - enlighten me! Thanks!
The primary distinguishing characteristic is that the No. 104 features 23 jewels (jeweled barrel) while the No. 105 features 21 jewels.

The 1905 Hampden catalog has full descriptions of each grade, for reference:

 
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Joe Blossic

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The primary distinguishing characteristic is that the No. 104 features 23 jewels (jeweled barrel) while the No. 105 features 21 jewels.
One should be clear that there is a 105 and a 105-NR(in flag). The 105-NR is a 23 jewel, Models 1 & 2, 1750 of then produced between 1895 and 1900. Henry Burgell on Chapter 149 did a lot of research on the Hampton 16s, 23j. Hampden 16S-23J.xls
This is one of my first purchases and my first Hampden 16s, 23J that started me to find all 17 variants on Henry's list, of which I now have 14. It is one of my best timekeepers, staying within 1 to 2 seconds on multiple day's use. It is SN 1092108, M1, circa 1896. For reasons unknown to me, Hampden called their first 16s, 23j watches model 2, and actually produced the model 1 after it. Even the first 16s, 23J that started the 23j war in size 16 in 1891 was a model 2 The 3rd photo is 105-NR, SN 1043477 M2, circa 1895.
Joe

3a.JPG 2a.JPG 20190304_205410 lr.jpg
 

KipW

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Ok - so there ARE 23j 105 and 104 grades, depending on model? Model 1 and 2 (105 NR marked) and model 4 and 5 (104 marked). Have I got that right?

I follow the difference in model, but still do not grasp the difference in grade...let alone what SR or NR has to do with anything?

Then, with the model 4 105 21j grade, there is also a "named" variation (William McKinley). Both were available in open face and hunting versions. Both were priced the same. Did Hampden do that with the model 5 also. Or was the named grade the so-called "Chronometer"?

WHY bother?

Lastly (for now), if I'm not mistaken, 19j-23j model 4 and model 5 also have the distinction of a safety pinion AND a motor/safety barrel (jeweled in 19 and 23, not in 21j) - in the same watch! Did any other manufacturer do this?
 

Kent

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It sounds like you could benefit from reading a copy of the book The Hampden Watch Co., NAWCC Special Order Supplement #1, J. Hernick and R. Arnold, NAWCC, Columbia, PA, 1997 (no longer in print).

Maybe some of your questions are answered in the Hampden Watch Co. Encyclopedia article.
 
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rschussel

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I couldn't find one so I thought I'd start a thread to discuss the Hampden 104. There is a good thread on the 23J Special Railway here (moderator hint: add to the Past Pocket Watches Threads thread):

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=32615&highlight=hampden+104

where Tom McIntyre showed a nice 104 (bottom of the 1st page).

In an effort to save every nice watch that looks like it was once used as a hockey puck, I bought the below Hampden 104. It's dial has some serious issues and the regulator is definitely out of regulation. Other than that, it may be able to be salvaged.

Some statistics: There were 4300 of this model/grade made. Mine was from the next to last run circa 1918.

Three hours after the auction for the Hampden closed, I picked up a pretty decent dial off eBay. I bought it because it was the standard dial for the 104 shown in the 1917 Opskamp Nolting catalog on the elginwatches.org website:

[ELGIN] Documents and Pictures

I think it should be a contemporary dial. The only difference appears to be the block "Hampden" vs script "Hampden Watch Co." signature.

Any comments? And let's show those 104s!

Cheers,
Stan
Here is link that clarifies serial numbers for the 104 SR Hunter nickel finish

(13) Questions about Hampden Grade 104 SR Hunter finishes | NAWCC Forums
 

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