Hammers striking out of sequence

[StewF]

HI. I'm new here. I have a Haller mantle clock with Westminster chimes that I had mechanically restored about 25 years ago. I'm not sure when it was made or what model it is, but it's a nice piece in an original unrestored case. It has a walnut case with what I've been able to decipher as a 12cm pendulum length and 190.66 bpm.

Up till now, it's worked flawlessly. I hadn't wound it for over a year though because it was right near my daughter's room and it woke her up with the chimes. But now that she's moved into her own digs, it's time to get it going again. However, since I've started using it again (about 3 weeks) one of the hammer strikes is out of sequence. Basically, the last chime in the sequence, be it 1/4 hr, 1/2 hr, 3/4 hr or hour, strikes first, then the rest in the correct order. But the last note doesn't chime again.

I have no idea how to correct it, so I'm hoping someone here will be able to school me.

 

[JTD]

Welcome to the board.

I am not sure if I have understood your problem correctly, but if you are saying that one hammer is rising and falling properly but not hitting the chime rod, then you can just take hold of the hammer and bend the shaft just a little so that the hammer strikes the chime rod just enough to make it sound.

But if I have not understood correctly others may know better.

JTD

 

[wow]

The three wheels on the back shown in your second photo are adjustable. There are two set screws on the lower wheel which may not have been tightened enough allowing the wheels to slip slightly. A turn of those wheels may release the wheels and let the hammer fall correctly. If so, tighten the screws when you get it right. If the wheels do not turn you may have to loosen the screws slightly and then turn the wheels. Like JTD, if I am not understanding, make a video of it chiming and post it here. Good luck.
Will

 

[StewF]

Thanks for the replies. might not have described the problem clearly enough. It's a bit of a strange one.

Let's say the sequence of the hammer strikes to make the correct tune for quarter past the hour is 1 2 3 4 . Mine goes 4 1 2 3. On the half hour, when it should chime 1 2 3 4 - 5 6 7 8, it chimes 8 1 2 3 - 4 5 6 7. Same deal at the ¾ hour and on the hour. I hope that makes a bit more sense.

 

[Willie X]

Sounds like the OP may be describing a hammer that isn't falling free. This would be typical for a stored clock, due to dried up excess oil on the hammer shaft.

Cure: remove the hammer assembly take it apart and clean everything up good.

Notes, make a map of the parts, as you take them apart. Also, mark the driving gear mesh point before removal and apply just a trace of oil on the hammer shaft before reassembly.

Willie X

 

[StewF]

I was hoping that I didn't have to dismantle anything. But it is what it is. Can I remove the entire movement without causing any other problems?

 

[JTD]

I was hoping that I didn't have to dismantle anything. But it is what it is. Can I remove the entire movement without causing any other problems?

You don't need to remove the movement if all you need is to bend the hammer arm slightly. But some of us are not entirely clear what your problem is. Further explantation or a video would help to get the advice you need.

JTD

 

[heifetz17]

You shouldn’t have to remove the movement. Pull this plate and have a look. You may have a hammer sticking or getting hung up on a tooth. It’ll probably become clear what the issue is when you have a better look at the mechanism.

 

[Ken X]

Just a thought, if you are lucky the hammer drum (apologies if this is the wrong designation) may just be one hammer out of synchronisation.

The correct designation of hammers is
1/4 1234
1/2 3124 3214
3/4 1324 4213 1234
Hr 3124 3214 1324 4213

If your clock is striking 3123 or 2343 at 1/4 and so on it is one hammer out of sync.

The fix I use on my English Westminsters is to note the direction of rotation of the bottom wheel in your photo when chiming and identify the hammer numbers i.e. which is 1, 2, 3 and 4, high to low tone.
Stop the clock just after the 1/4 hr four chimes have struck.
Remove the centre of the three wheels in your photograph by easing off the black retaining clip and sliding the wheel off its shaft to disconnect the clock mechanism, (top wheel) from the hammer drum (bottom wheel)
Carefully rotate the hammer drum by hand until the hammers chime 1234. Stop rotating, refit the centre wheel and test.

 

[RickNB]

Correction on chining. Using the numbering scheme provided by Ken, the correct sequence is: (corrections in red)

1/4 1234
1/2 3124 3213
3/4 1324 4213 1234
Hr 3124 3213 1324 4213

 

[Willie X]

What are "corections in red"? Are those notes lifting and dropping later, or just lifting and not dropping quickly enough to make a sound? It has to be one or the other.

It's a lot easier to just go by the sound.

There are four notes that decend on the first quarter and the same decenting notes go again at the third (last set) of the third quarter. Easy peezy.

Willie X

 

[JayKosta]

With the minute hand approaching the 1st quarter (15 minute mark), the drum should be oriented so the 1234 sequence of teeth is aligned to drive the hammers.

 

[Ken X]

Correction on chining. Using the numbering scheme provided by Ken, the correct sequence is: (corrections in red)

1/4 1234
1/2 3124 3213
3/4 1324 4213 1234
Hr 3124 3213 1324 4213

Hi Rick,
Many thanks for the correction. I knew I was pushing my luck putting the whole sequence in. . In my defense my source notes were also wrong. . Hopefully the OP can get the jist of what he might have to do if it is a synchronisation issue.

 

[RickNB]

Hi Rick,
Many thanks for the correction. I knew I was pushing my luck putting the whole sequence in. . In my defense my source notes were also wrong. . Hopefully the OP can get the jist of what he might have to do if it is a synchronisation issue.

When it comes to ding-dongs, I'm right up there.

 

[StewF]

Once again, thanks for the replies.

As i was typing, the clock started to chime for 8:15. There's a definite gap of a few seconds between the first chime, which should actually be the last one, and the next one, which should be the 1st one. 4 123 instead of 1234.

 

[StewF]

You shouldn’t have to remove the movement. Pull this plate and have a look. You may have a hammer sticking or getting hung up on a tooth. It’ll probably become clear what the issue is when you have a better look at the mechanism.

View attachment 756269

So I'm assuming that I need to;
1. Stop the clock (I always wanted to say that)
2. Mark the mesh position of the gears
3. Undo the 2 screws and remove the bottom gear
4. Remove the 2 screws that hold the shaped plate to the main plate
5. Have a look for anything that doesn't look right, might be sticky, bent, jammed, etc.

Tai

 

[StewF]

Once again, thanks for the replies.

As i was typing, the clock started to chime for 8:15. There's a definite gap of a few seconds between the first chime, which should actually be the last one, and the next one, which should be the 1st one. 4 123 instead of 1234.

 

[wow]

The solution is in post # 3 and # 16. That should solve your problem.

 

[StewF]

Thank you everyone for your help with this. I think it's fixed now.

I think the hammer arm was sticking in the up position and not striking the last chime of the sequence. So when the next chime started, the hammer came down, went through the sequence, then the last one stayed up. And so forth. I gave it all a bit of a jiggle and it now seems to work as it should.

These clocks are a beautiful thing. I'm a toolmaker of many years, so I have an affinity for accuracy, but old clocks and watches never cease to amaze me. Craftsmanship and patience of the kind we'll never see again.

Now I need to get stuck into restoring my antique cuckoo clock that has been in my family for over 120 years. So no doubt I'll be back with more questions.

 

[StewF]

In this video you can see what was happening. It's a crappy video because I had to compress it.

 

[wow]

Glad you got it. Be sure those two set screws on the lower wheel are tight or it will slip again.