Marine: Hamilton model 21

[butlercreek]

Does anybody know how to tell a new outer box from an original
I have 2, on one the Hamilton tag is brass with black lettering on the other the tag is what and looks plastic, do I have a reproduction?
thanx

 

[doug sinclair]

I have heard that the reproduction cases are made with NOS genuine original Hamilton brass. If that is the case, I have no idea how one would tell a replica from a perfectly restored original. Let's see if there are other opinions. I don't know if an email to Larry Crutsinger (detent21) and the only source I know of for original Hamilton military parts might be worth your while.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Is the question about the box with gimbals or the outer box with the bottom flanges that was used to protect the box with the brass fittings, etc. I do not think there are any brass fittings on the outer box. I also suspect that very few of the combinations of outer box and chronometer survive unless there are markings to identify the parts. They would have been freely interchanged at the repair depot.

 

[butlercreek]

The outer box, the placard on front that says "Hamilton watch co. Lancaster pa."
on one of my boxes is white plastic and brass on the other, I was just wondering if one was recent construction and the other vintage I know there is a company making these boxes currently....

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Shipsclock Cabinetry makes the boxes with gimbals for pretty much any chronometer that needs one.

Here is a picture of my Elgin 600 in its boxes. The outer box does not have any plaques on it. I do not have a picture of a Hamilton, but I have seen the same outer box with a Hamilton in it.



Here is a picture of a Model 21 in reproduction inner and outer boxes.

 

[DeweyC]

I have heard that the reproduction cases are made with NOS genuine original Hamilton brass. If that is the case, I have no idea how one would tell a replica from a perfectly restored original. Let's see if there are other opinions. I don't know if an email to Larry Crutsinger (detent21) and the only source I know of for original Hamilton military parts might be worth your while.

I would be surprised if anyone has original M21 breakable parts since Bob Ravel purchased detents, pinions, escape wheels and locking jewels from me. He and Jim Connors had M21 hole jewels made in the 1980s and I approached him about selling some to me before I had mine made. When he laughed in my face I started undercutting all his prices.

He was really pissed that the employee who delivered all the drawings and process sheets to the NAWCC told me where they were (and they were STILL on top of the cabinet) and that I then copied every one (including the gimbals hardware btw). Hamilton employees could not stand him.

Just saying.

 

[DeweyC]

I broke with one of partners when I was originally buying up M21s and M22s from the DRMO sales in the early 90s (I purchased 650 M21s; including No. 4 which I kept for me).

He caused to have made Brass Hamilton name plates and then sent the bill to the corporation. I refused because it would be a Trademark violation. There were at least 500 and I have no idea what he did with them; but IIRC they were a little thin. I never heard of the plastic ones being reproduced.

 

[Adam Harris]

He was really pissed that the employee who delivered all the drawings and process sheets to the NAWCC told me where they were (and they were STILL on top of the cabinet) and that I then copied every one (including the gimbals hardware btw). Hamilton employees could not stand him.

Just saying.

I do NOT think ANYTHING is "just laying about now"
Many, many new improvements in cataloging and archiving have happened in past 120 months.
And its ongoing at a fast pace.

The library are doing a GREAT job
adam

 

[DeweyC]

Adam,

To be clear, this was in 1992. World was much different then.

 

[Adam Harris]

Well its good that people know the claim is very old
A

 

[DeweyC]

Well its good that people know the claim is very old
A

To what "claim" do you refer? Would be good for people to know what you are talking about.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Dewey, since both people you name in your post are now dead, they cannot dispute your remarks. My personal experience with both of them was good. I bought some nice books from Jim Connors and Dr. Ravel sold me a really nice Jurgenson presentation piece at a gift price.

I always enjoyed talking to both of them and neither ever laughed in my face although I am sure I must have made some very naive remarks.

 

[Adam Harris]

To what "claim" do you refer? Would be good for people to know what you are talking about.

"He was really pissed that the employee who delivered all the drawings and process sheets to the NAWCC told me where they were (and they were STILL on top of the cabinet)"

 

[DeweyC]

Death does not change facts. Tom, your role as Moderator does not give you permission to say "they are dead so what you say cannot be true". There are plenty of people still around who remember the "competition". Please be more judicious in your statements.

You COULD have said " I remember Bob Ravel differently". But you chose not to.

As for Adam; not a claim; they WERE on top of the cabinet. Ask Nancy or (Eileen I think was there too?). (and do NOT tell me they are unavailable not around). The burden of disproving anyone's statements always lies with the challenger!

 

[Adam Harris]

But NOT "STILL" anymore.

So what may have been is NOT the case now, that is what I was ensuring is understood.
A

 

[Jerry Freedman]

My personal face to face meeting with Dr. Ravel was also nasty. I agree with Dewey as to Dr. Ravel's attitude toward people.

Jerry Freedman

 

[DeweyC]

Jerry,

Thank you for not dismissing my experience out of hand.

Tom, believe it or not there are some people in this world who think I am absolutely despicable. There are others who think I am a saint. I am neither. People are not uni-dimemnsional ; we are very complex and to think otherwise is to be naive.

My relationship with Bob Ravel was as a serious competitor. Yours was as a customer. He was very angry and dismissive at my intent to compete with him. Who would not be? And to be in control of the Library and yet have some smart alec come along and locate the very documents for which he spent years searching? Do you truly believe he treated me like a friend?

Yet, I eventually sold him material. It is all business; had nothing to do with whether we liked each other as human beings.

And please, do not tell me you seriously believe everyone who is pleasant to you is your friend.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Death does not change facts. Tom, your role as Moderator does not give you permission to say "they are dead so what you say cannot be true". There are plenty of people still around who remember the "competition". Please be more judicious in your statements.

You COULD have said " I remember Bob Ravel differently". But you chose not to.

As for Adam; not a claim; they WERE on top of the cabinet. Ask Nancy or (Eileen I think was there too?). (and do NOT tell me they are unavailable not around). The burden of disproving anyone's statements always lies with the challenger!

I do not see the words you quoted in my post. I made a statement of fact that they are no longer alive and I related my personal experiences with both of them.

 

[DeweyC]

About what I ehxpected. So it goes.