Hamilton - Hayden W Wheeler Style 6

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Kevin Neathery, Dec 3, 2018.

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  1. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    #1 Kevin Neathery, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    I have been doing some digging again on a movement. In this case it is the of bridge 21 jewel style 6. I have gone through the Bulletin and read the 2 articles that Howard Lasser did as well as the ledger entries and the 2003 RR Corner done by Uberall and Singer. So at least I am not starting at nothing on this watch. Amazing research done by all. The watch is the one below.

    Wheeler.jpg

    Dial appears to be correct for the time frame. I am betting on a 4 foot dial. I am also betting on it being original and you will see why later. The case is most likely a later one used after the original may have been melted.

    Wheeler Movement.jpg

    The movement is the style 6 thin. There was a 19j, according to the articles, that was a sample but all others were 21j pendant set. As you see by the pic it has the detent screw for the stem. I also believe this means that it has the larger dial plate than the later 16s movements. I will have to see if that is mentioned anywhere.

    The serial is where I had a bit of an issue. 175622.

    Wheeler Movement Close.jpg

    The movement is obviously dirty and needs a clean. That can also be seen by the dirt on the dial. So why would the dial be an original on a HWW watch? I think it comes to the ledgers. When you look up the 175622 serial you get the blank pages.

    https://nawcc.org/images/stories/Hamilton/LedgerPages/100001-200000/175601-175651A.pdf

    That got me to looking at the 2nd Lasser article. The movement listed with the HWWCo markings that is a style 6 has the serial of 75616. If you drop the 1 on mine you get 75622 which is only 7 away from the exact same model movement. SO back to digging in the ledgers and finding out the indexing was off some I found this....

    https://nawcc.org/images/stories/Hamilton/LedgerPages/1-100000/75606.pdf

    When you look down the page you see that the information on the 75616 is accurate as being sold to Burr W Freer. At 75618 you find that Wheeler is the name listed for the rest of the page. The top of the page indicates all are 21j. When you get to 75622 you find something odd. The line is noted with bought and sold for that watch being 8/20/00 and 8/21/00. But just above you get the note of that serial with 175622 and the dates 7/18/01. I don't get why they felt the need to note that the movement was 21j being the page already noted that. It does state Bridge and OF though as well. There is a note in the Dec 2003 RR Corner that the Circular pattern ended with this serial as 75623 had the wavy pattern.

    This same irregularity happens for 75624/175624, 75626/175626, and 75628/175628. Sold and returned? Sent back for engraving changes? So far I have only seen this for these 4 serials in this range. So does anyone have a reason why Lasser said that there were 5 made and only 1 surviving? Was this different than the group of 4 that I listed plus the 75616?
     
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  2. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Kevin,
    Howard Lasser usually called this plate layout a prototype. He has the one in the article and I will forward your post to him for comments
     
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  3. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Awesome! I appreciate it.

    I would almost think that the 19j was a prototype as it was never marked for adjustments, serial, or any other engraving. It is also interesting to note the difference in the style of the cap jewel setting in the one illustrated in the article. The one I have is the larger style that conforms to the rest of the movements in the 75xxx serial range. Where as the one in the pic with serial 75616 looks like the type you find on a 950 and 950E. But the 950 did not start production until 1909 with serial 750201...10 years after the one illustrated was sold.
     
  4. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    In the Finishing records 175622 is shown as 21j H W W entering finishing 11/1902 and shown as a hunting ! so certainly some discrepancy there.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  5. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Add to that the fact that the ledger shows it sold over a year before it made it to the finishing department. And that is the 2nd selling date.


    What Halligan had to put forward on Wheeler watches.....

    https://nawcc.org/images/stories/hamilton_errata/movements_cases/1/Hal0263.jpg

    https://nawcc.org/images/stories/hamilton_errata/movements_cases/1/Hal0264.jpg

    https://nawcc.org/images/stories/hamilton_errata/movements_cases/1/Hal0265.jpg

    https://nawcc.org/images/stories/hamilton_errata/movements_cases/1/Hal0266.jpg

    Looks like they were struggling with the records even then. He also makes note repeatedly hat they only had one damaskeening pattern. There was mention that there was no photographic records off any of them so they were going by just the numbers in the ledgers.
     
  6. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Kevin,
    Thank goodness for Lowell Halligan's notes however they were only as good as the information was that he had access to and on about every grade page, he says that no records exist before 1900, so it is a guess at what happened from the beginning to 1901

    Howard 's notes indicate ONLY 1590 were finished out of the 2500 and yours is another one that got shuffled around and ended up being a special watch.


    I received his reply about the watch

     
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  7. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    I appreciate you reaching out to Howard. I also appreciate your insights as well on it. I would hate to have to find any parts for it lol Once the father in law is done with the Hamilton 16s #2 and that 952 conversion gets here it will have some good company. I will see about cleaning it and post pics of the movement and parts soon.
     
  8. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    All of the gears, jewels and all the parts should be regular Hamilton 16s except for the plates.

    HWW had 2 distinct DMK patterns the large circle ,like on your watch and the wavy line pattern, as Hamilton did assign different DMK patterns to it largest agents.
     
  9. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Check out the Appendix II for the 2005 article. The tooling seems to imply that they did have to quite a bit. I see note of center bridges separate from the barrel bridge. Lots of talk about clearance. What is the fun is the cost to build then they added 25% for a total of $1544.07. Adjusted for inflation and basing that on say the year 1899 it comes out to $22,585.99 in today's money.

    The sheet shows it is for both hunting and open face. Being that it does show barrel bridge and center bridge, is it possible this is the bill of materials for this style movement?

    May I post just that page here to help those that may not be able to see the Bulletin it is attached to?
     
  10. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Lasser- Wheeler.jpg

    Pdf as well.....

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    I read it this way for plates and bridges....

    Pillar Plate

    Pillar.jpg
    Barrel Bridge

    Barrel bridge.jpg

    Barrel Bridge Cap

    Barrel Bridge Cap.jpg

    Center Bridge

    Center Bridges.jpg

    4th & Escapement Wheel Bridges

    4th & Esc Bridges.jpg
     
  12. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Picky little pedant that I am, I would have written 4th & Escapement [Wheel] Bridges, since wheel is not in the original. But, that aside, well done.:clap: You would have made a great palaeographer.:coolsign:
     
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  13. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Wouldn't that be "4th & Esc[apement Wheel] Bridges"? ;)
     
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  14. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Kevin,
    In reviewing the hand written tool & equipment list , I would agree that $1500 was a lot of money in 1900 and would love to compare it to another start up grade to see any differences. It is an experimental watch and I don't have a clue why it wasn't pursued or mass produced?

    It is a nice 4 bridge layout and doesn't match any other grades bridges, so it was a all new Grade.

    The most amazing feature, to me, is the lack of a jewel or a hole in the top bridge to let the MS barrel be oiled.

    When you clean it, a picture of whatever bearing or way they made a bearing under the plate will be interesting.

    In Howard Lasser's example in the Bulletin, his has a jeweled barrel getting it to 19 Jewels and yours has a capped pallet bridge getting it to 19 jewels.
     
  15. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    I think we may be looking at 2 different watches. In his first article Lasser shows this 19j unmarked bridge. Interesting to note that the 19j is a HC.

    HWW 19j Bridge.jpg

    In the revisited article he shows the 21j with serial 75616 marked for HWW below.

    HWW 75616.jpg

    The 19j version does have a jeweled barrel as usually found when Hamilton made a 19j 16s. They never jeweled the barrel on a 21j as far as I know.
     
  16. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    #16 Jim Haney, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
    Jim,
    Here is a full answer to the questions raised on the Bulletin board. You may post them, if you feel they are valuable.
    The watch design was based on the Patek Philippe produced in 1891. thumbnail.jpg
    [​IMG]
    Willard H. Wheeler, Hayden W. Wheeler's son, was a principal in his father's business and had an office in Chicago. Willard was a collector of fine and unique European watches and he admired the design of the Patek Phillipe so he got this plate-layout working with Henry J. Cain of the Hamilton Co.
    The watch I have serial No. 75,616 was sold to me by Art Zimmerla on 11 April 2005. He obtained it from Roy Ehrhardt. Roy found the watch in a box of parts in a pawn shop at 1841 Broadway just north of Columbus Circle, New York City in 1947. Art said that some of the parts where from other Hayden Wheeler movements and indicated that this (75,616) was a proto-type movement of which there were five. He did review my article on Hayden Wheelers and called me "A Wheeler Dealer!"
    In October 2017, Bohnam's Auctioneers sold serial number 75,608 for $9,350.00 2.jpg
    [​IMG]
    The watch 175,622 was worth between $4,000.00 and $5,000.00 based upon the sale of 75,608. The watch 75,608 was all original in the original gold case.
    Restoration verses Preservation. - Most collectors want their watches restored to the original working condition and will go for repair parts from the same time as the watch to be restored. There are those who want only the complete watch in its original condition without any restoration. The latter is mandatory requirement of the Smithsonian Institution. David Todd who was employed the the Institute wanted to restore the watches to working condition by required to just preserve them.
    Howard G. Lasser, FNAWCC
    .
     
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  17. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Thank you Jim and please pass my thanks on to Howard too!

    My intentions will be to slightly restore but preserve it mostly in the current situation it is in now. In other words I like the display case and I tend to like the dial. But The hands are just a plain mixed bag. I have already contacted the master of hands here, Marty, who has the perfect set for it that would be right for the watch and the time. Otherwise a light clean and oil. No harsh chemicals. Peg the jewels, pithwood for the pinions, soft cloth, and Mobius on the pivots. If I ever come a cross a 4 foot LD Dana dial I would buy it and put it on but, keep the one that is with it as part of the history of the watch. The hands will be sent to Marty though as the hour hand has interest to him.

    One of the many interesting things Lasser brings up is that Willard H Wheeler had an office in Chicago. I was recently reading the Horological Journal about certain buyers visiting Chicago. One was L D Dana. Dana had a jewelry store in Antigo WI and a few other places like Madison. The fact that he and a few others were mentioned as visiting buyers made it sound like they regularly went to Chicago on business trips. Funny thing is the watch came all the way up here from Florida and Antigo is 30 min from where I live.

    I used the light box to get these pics.

    20181207_225804.jpg

    20181207_225940.jpg

    20181207_225647.jpg

    20181207_225653.jpg

    20181207_225700.jpg

    20181207_225708.jpg
     
  18. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    In 2015 in the Bonhams auction the catalog listed the 75608 as being with the original dial but the case is listed as a gold filled display case. I can't find any catalog for it in 2017. Can anyone help me on that?
     
  19. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Never mind. I registered with the site and they only had the watch once back in 2015.

    Interesting that the Enos was in a display case as well.
     
  20. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    So I was going back through the information and Bullitens. Both the Railroaders' Corner and Lasser articles mention dials. They used double sunk blank, double sunk Hamilton Watch Co, single sunk Hamilton, and PL double sunk dials. All were 4 foot variety. So it is possible to have had a Hamilton Watch Co dial on it.

    When reading over the details of the HWW serial number 75616 had a blank double sunk dial. Further....it is in a display case. That makes 3 of this model in display cases. With an estimated 5 produced...the majority are in display cases. It could just be coincidence that all three ended up in the hands of scrappers. Or they were sold uncased.
     
  21. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    It is pretty safe to say these early movements were sold thru jewelers as movement, because Hamilton didn't start casing them until 1909. The jeweler, most likely, HWW would fit them in nice (Gold) cases and that is the reason they are ending up in Salesman's cases.

    BTW, all 16s Hamilton's used the 4 foot dials until about serial number 880,000.
     

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