Hamilton 992B in Bunn Special first model case

[William Thomas]

I just acquired an anomaly and possibly one of a kind 992B Hamilton. It is an early movement, serial number C4504 with typical RWS dial. Its case is a Wadsworth 14K GREEN gold filled case with serial number N130045. Case screw marks are deeply etched in case frame, no other screw marks. There is no Bunn Special marking inside the case back, no patent info., just the Wadsworth name and 14K gold filled stamp. numbers on case frame is xx45. (presumed match). The crown is the style found on the model 29 Bunn Special case or Sangamo Special rigid bow case. Crown is also green gold, color match with case. It's got wear so is no flash job. Bezel and back and bow have the typical chain link pattern. There is no square cutout by the crown, yet the case has the traditional sleeve to hold stem, which snaps up and down. I bought it off ebay-a buy it now for not much money. It came from an estate, that's all the seller knows (or tells). It came from a Minnesota town with a lot of railroad activity in its heyday, and several watch inspectors. Have any similar watches been reported?? Photos soon.

 

[musicguy]

possibly one of a kind 992B Hamilton

I'm not trying to be rude(I'm just dumb sometimes)
I'm not sure why it is a one of a kind 992b. Is
it the case/movement combination?



Thanks
Rob

 

[Jim Haney]

All 992B were sold as a complete watch cased at the factory in Hamilton cases. So are you speculating that it may have been cased in it's present case at the factory?

 

[Tom Huber]

A number of years ago I acquired an Illinois 16S Abe Lincoln housed in a very nice Hamilton marked Ygf model 5 case. No other case screw marks, so it is assumed the Abe Lincoln was original to the case.

Go figure! None us will ever know what occurred when these watches were bought or if they were recased that way

Tom

 

[John Cote]

Why would anyone assume that an oddball case is original to a watch just because there are no extra case screw marks? New cases could be purchased back in the day as replacements. Read what Jim Haney says above. You should not assume that this case is original to a 992B...you should doubt it.

 

[William Thomas]

I'm not making any definite assumptions. I am wondering, however, if there is any record of Hamilton selling any early 992B movements alone to watch inspectors or jewelers. What I do know is I have a Wadsworth Bunn type case with an N serial number I would like to know more about.

 

[Jim Haney]

William, Terry Hall & Robert Sweet have some case numbers info and may be able to date the case , but I think it is a late 1920's or early 1930's Wadsworth case.
When Hamilton bought Illinois in 1928-29 some Bunn Special and 161A & 163E were cased in Hamilton cases, but not the other way around

 

[Fred Hansen]

I’ve seen some Wadsworth cases in the Bunn Special first model style but without Bunn Special markings and with serial numbers having an H prefix that seems to be typical 1940s vintage. Here’s a link to one of these cases that passed through Jones & Horan auction last year ...

Price Search

I don’t know off hand when the N prefix of your case would date to.

On the general question of 992B shipped as movements-only, the only thing coming quickly to mind is possibly the Canadian market and I have seen shipping tins for 992B movements marked with serial numbers and noting 24 hour dials.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Forgot to add - I don’t have a copy of Mike Chamelin’s Bunn Special book at hand right now but if I remember right he mentions some info on these unmarked cases.

 

[terry hall]

The OP has sent to me the images...
Most definitely unusual, and especially the wadsworth case serialization... and it is not marked 'bunn special'

dial looks right as does the movement. has the early first model bow, and can understand the comment on the model 29 crown, but there is significant wear on the crown.

Yes, Mike mentions the H prefix cases, but I don't believe either of us has seen an N prefix, even on Hamilton cases.. J on model two is the highest alpha prefix i've seen.
I've made Mike aware of this tread....

To answer the OP, I evidence of Hamilton shipping 992b as a movement only... the evidence is a metal shipping container serialized to a 992b, but a much higher number than yours.

 

[William Thomas]

I had the movement out of the case to see if it had a sleeve (It does). I compared the crown to a model 29 crown and they ARE the same design.

 

[Robert Sweet]

What does the Hamilton Ledgers say about C4504?

Robert

 

[DeweyC]

The OP has sent to me the images...
Most definitely unusual, and especially the wadsworth case serialization... and it is not marked 'bunn special'

dial looks right as does the movement. has the early first model bow, and can understand the comment on the model 29 crown, but there is significant wear on the crown.

To answer the OP, I evidence of Hamilton shipping 992b as a movement only... the evidence is a metal shipping container serialized to a 992b, but a much higher number than yours.

This is a good example of problems that were rampant in the 1980s when a couple self appointed authorities defined what a RR watch should look like. We should remember, Hamilton's primary mission was to make money forhte stockholders. Watches were how they did it. And serving customers is how they sold watches. They had no interest or concern for future collectors.

Someone once almost convinced me that all 992s came with DS dials (I had/have a SR with a great RN SS). Then I acquired a 963 with a SS dial that was private labeled and matched the PL on the movt.

You become successful by meeting customer's requests. Otherwise, you are GM trying to force the Citation and Chevette down the throats of car buyers.

 

[richiec]

The Chevette wasn't so bad, kind of like an early smart car only not so smart.

 

[Jim Haney]

What does the Hamilton Ledgers say about C4504?

Robert

The ledgers say it was finished on 11-22-1940 and sold on 12-6-1940 to customer 26-70834
By this time Hamilton had started using numbers instead of customers names to record sales.
I have always hoped that this info is in the vast amount of Hamilton paperwork, in the Library, however, no one, as yet has found it

 

[Robert Sweet]

The ledgers say it was finished on 11-22-1940 and sold on 12-6-1940 to customer 26-70834
By this time Hamilton had started using numbers instead of customers names to record sales.
I have always hoped that this info is in the vast amount of Hamilton paperwork, in the Library, however, no one, as yet has found it

Thanks Jim,

What would be the motive behind anyone requesting that a new 992B be placed in a 1920's Wadsworth - Bunn Special case? Anything is possible, but this would be a very unusual case.

Robert

 

[William Thomas]

It
It's not a Bunn Special case if not signed Bunn Special. Methinks case likely languished at Wadsworth for years until......?

 

[terry hall]

What does the Hamilton Ledgers say about C4504?

Robert

sorry... did not see where Jim had answered.. so duplication of info here......

Finished 11/22/1940
Sold 12/6/1940
to 'code' 26-70834
Giving a cursory scan, only time that 'code' appears on that page set
There has not been any info (I know of) that has broken these customer codes.

 

[terry hall]

After receiving the images and posting them, and scratching my head....
Yes, it appears to be the style of the first Model Bunn Special Case, but is not so marked.
The bow is the style of the earliest white and green gold cases with the 'hump' in the middle.
This style of case is circa 1926ish....

The images do give the appearance of only the 992b Screw marks.

The whole thing sorta goes against all the advertising and promotional material of that time, and per the ledger, shipped early in the 'life' of the grade.

I'm aware of a factory memo (as others are) with "issues" concerning die breakage at case factory and that substitute cases would be in use, but I'm confident this occurred AFTER this movement is shown to be completed. (I'll try to dig out that memo...)

Re: Ledger... no specific notation related to this movement, nor any other movement on the page. ( 992B ledger pages are scarce, most did not survive)

I have written Mike Chamelin, and have his lengthy, detailed response....UN-edited, posted below,


Well, very interesting and as my good friend Fred A. Hansen says, “No, Mike we haven’t seen it all yet”..........with that in mind, I quite readily agree,... whether factory or fake.......new and unseen items keep appearing as the years go by, for sure....yet, our job is to study, ponder and decide , if possible what , when and why......yet with this posted case, quite a few things come to mind...and feel free to forward to the board on my behalf....

..first, only the very earliest Wadsworth Bunn Special cases had sleeves, those date from 1924/5 and their serial numbers were late 6.9 million/ 7.1 and those had square pendant cutouts under the crowns.........now,..the owner states that his posted case has a sleeve and this is indicative of an early frame yet, his case as shown has a rounded cutout area under the crown......and that speaks of cases made after 7.206......or perhaps someone with skills (old factory employee?) to make it have this non factory combination, perhaps, years late after the Wadsworth factory was defunct?.... ...Of course, I do understand all serial numbers match on the posted case but just stating indicative details of factory production for Wadsworth cases, after 30 years of study and research on these 1st model “style” cases.

..second, I would note that research shows that Wadsworth discontinued 14 k gold filled cases on May 10th, 1934 per a factory letter to their customers........this posted case is 14 k marked and all other recorded “unusual” cases shown in the Bunn Special book with no Bunn Special marking and Model 29 crowns with perplexing serial number ranges were marked 10 k .

...third, I have never seen ANY Wadsworth case with an “N” prefix for any watch maker, in any size or style.....ever in my life, ..best of my knowledge as my memory serves presently at 60 years old.....wish I was 30 years old and full of p and vinegar again, but such is life

.....fourth, the serial number as shown in post is in a “curved” font and this is similar to curve of the “high serial number” shown in the Bunn Sp. book but that one had no “N” prefix and was 10k gold filled.......with an 8.7 million number which might suggest mid late 1930’s.......

...fifth, the case posted is stamped “Wadsworth” and not “Wadsworth Quality” as were the old Bunn Sp. cases or Hamilton cases, for that matter, which were made by Wadsworth for whatever respective watch factory. Of course, we all know that this is a Bunn special 1st model “Style” case....and with all its, contradicting tell tale details , this speaks to me and l strongly suspect this case is post Wadsworth factory production.....in other words, was cast/produced/fabricated by someone with the means to do so , more than likely after the 1940’s for sure.........and again, by perhaps an industrious and enthusiastic former factory employee.............

..as I remember Wadsworth was gone by the mid 1950’s......and the highest factory Wadsworth case I have ever seen was with a “J” prefix with around a 390,000 serial number, that was belonging to a #2 Hamilton bar over crown from around 1953.....

...sixth, we should all remember there were many Star # 17 cases reproduced in the early 1970’s when gold was on the rise in both gold filled and solid gold and today there are people reproducing bows for all the RR cases from molds cast from factory examples to serve the collecting hobby we all love. Many people have the skills today to fabricate a case and I once spoke to a well known case maker, in Chicago about making for me a solid gold Bunn Special case. They stated I could have one in any metal, platinum or otherwise that I desired , in any color or desired details and specifics, if I could meet their price.

..... that said, there is no concrete way to say one way or the other anything proof positive about the posted case in this thread in question, however, if I had to guess with all the convoluted characteristics of this particular case that house details of several different decades, I can only guess and surmise that some Wadsworth case factory employee with molds/dyes and stamping equipment was playing around and fabricating some interesting cases to keep all future collectors and researchers guessing well into their demented years... if not the grave , of exactly what it might be or date to......lol ......
.
........ again, all respect to the owner and posted example as we all desire research to go forward and see new examples...... I can only provide to you what I have seen and recorded over the last 30 years of research..............always much more to learn but ..as the late and great Bill Meggers told me in St. Louis in May, 1999 at a NAWCC show.........”always more questions than answers, Mike.”...

...AMEN is all I can say after a life time of study on Illinois watches and Wadsworth cases, ...all the best, respectfully and humbly yours, michael r. chamelin

 

[DeweyC]

To reinforce Mike's hypothesis about employees: Starting in the late 1990s I bought M21 escape wheels and detents from a Lancaster resident who took all the needed dies and jigs. These were sold to Ravel who sold them as new; but I never represented them as such. The last EWs I got were unplated and then his family sent it all to the landfill. Down to fewer than 18 detents and a tray of EWs.

But employees knew how to protect their retirements. So I can easily agree this case may be the work of an ex-employee.

Gotta love this stuff and I am glad the OP brought this up.

Thanks Terry for the research.

 

[179]

And thanks Michael for all your work !!!

 

[Robert Sweet]

I'm not making any definite assumptions. I am wondering, however, if there is any record of Hamilton selling any early 992B movements alone to watch inspectors or jewelers. What I do know is I have a Wadsworth Bunn type case with an N serial number I would like to know more about.

William,

When you get a chance, could you post a high resolution close-up photo of the Wadsworth trademark for comparison?

Thanks,
Robert

 

[terry hall]

robert, not sure if it will help, but i cropped the original image and it is posted below. not sure hiow or if it will enlarge.
with the lighting used, looks like the information is embossed, not engraved (embossment means raised letters above the surface, engraved means cut into the surface)

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Terry, I think that may be the photographic equivalent of an optical illusion. I have taken quite few photograph that look like that and I end up touching the markings to be sure they are down rather than up.

I would be surprised if they were engraved, but I have not figured out how they could punch them without distorting the back. Perhaps they were done before the case backs were finished.

 

[Robert Sweet]

robert, not sure if it will help, but i cropped the original image and it is posted below. not sure hiow or if it will enlarge.
with the lighting used, looks like the information is embossed, not engraved (embossment means raised letters above the surface, engraved means cut into the surface)
View attachment 508385

Thanks Terry,

Attached are a few trademarks from various Bunn Special First Model cases. I have extracted all the info. except the word WADSWORTH. Some have 10k and 14k above the word WADSWORTH and some below.

Robert

 

[William Thomas]

Close up: Wadsworth stamped or engraved.

 

[Jim Haney]

Thanks Robert,
As can be seen, the signature in William's case matches the very late 1947, at least the "W" does

 

[Robert Sweet]

The top trademark is a image of the subject trademark. I have placed red arrows on the "W" where there appears to be a difference at the beginning of the "W" and where there is no Long Tail at the end of the "W" as compared to the other trademarks listed. I fully agree with Mike Chamelin summation on this topic.

Robert

 

[terry hall]

Terry, I think that may be the photographic equivalent of an optical illusion. I have taken quite few photograph that look like that and I end up touching the markings to be sure they are down rather than up.

I would be surprised if they were engraved, but I have not figured out how they could punch them without distorting the back. Perhaps they were done before the case backs were finished.

Fully Agree!! Optical illusion from lighting.. in no way do i believe the marking is embossed....

Also i would expect the dies to wear or break, and the 'new' die could show differences, the same we see with dial signatures.