Hamilton 16 and 18 Size Movements - List of Adjustments for each Grade

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Robert Sweet, May 10, 2018.

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  1. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The attached list of Hamilton 16 and 18 Size movements with Grade, Plate Description and adjustments may be helpful to those who collect Hamilton pocket watches.

    The moderator for this forum may wish to include this chart as another Hamilton sticky.

    Comment welcome.

    Robert

    Hamilton 16 and 18 Size - Table of Adjustments - Revision - AAA.jpg
     
    Leigh Callaway and musicguy like this.
  2. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    Robert,

    Very useful - thank you.

    Question though,

    The list in the top grouping has many more adjusted to 5P grades than shown in the bottom group.

    For example grade 954 is included in the top group but not the bottom group. Curious as to why that is.

    Thanks,

    Richard’s
     
  3. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    #3 Robert Sweet, May 10, 2018
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
    The top group is a list of the 16 size movements and the bottom a list of 18 sizes, as such, the 954 being a 16 size would only qualify for the top list.

    Both groups are listed in jewel count order from top to bottom.

    Robert
     
  4. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User

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    Thank you Robert.
     
  5. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    Thank you -
     
  6. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    In pre-1905 catalogs the number of positions to which movements were adjusted wasn't described; the statement being "adjusted to temperature, isochronism (where appropriate) and positions".

    Does anyone know if there is any documentation that shows that movement grades later described (and marked) as being adjusted to five positions had originally been so adjusted rather than having been upgraded to five position adjustment when the railroad time service rules began requiring adjustment to five positions (and being so marked)?

    1903_OY_Co_Catalog_Pg_82_Hamilton_18S_&_16S.jpg
     
  7. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    Kent,

    I'm not sure if this ad answers your question, but it shows Waltham 18 size movements adjusted to 3 & 5 positions prior to 1905.

    Robert

    Waltham Watch 18 Size - Adj. to 3 & 5 Positions - Jewelers' Circular  - June 21, 1899.jpg
     
  8. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Yes, we have that piece of data for Waltham, but what about Hamilton and all the other watch companies?
     
  9. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User

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    You mean the doc Robert started this thread with is not sufficient for Hamilton?

    I am almost certain I saw the Elgin specs one of the Elgin watch sites.
     
  10. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Super Moderator
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    Feb 11, 2005
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    I've added this thread to the Hamilton sticky.
     
  11. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    That is exactly what I mean. At the time that Halligan wrote this material, the adjustment of the movements had been described (and marked), with the respect to the number of positions, for for several decades. I'd like to see contemporary documentation that shows the grade Nos. 940, 942, 990, 992 & etc., were adjusted to 5 positions in the late 1890s and early 1900s (as appropriate - I know that some did not exist in the late 1890s)

    If so, I hope you can point us to it (by that, I mean contemporary documentation that shows the railroad grades were adjusted to 5 positions in the late 1890s and early 1900s) What I've come up with for Elgin is exemplified by the below items.

    1901_Mar-6_Veritas_Introduction.jpg 1903_OY_Co_Catalog_Pg_73_Elgin_18S.jpg
     
  12. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User

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    I see. You and I are looking for the same kind of documentation. I mentioned in another thread I am interested in going thru the archives to see if the Finishing Dept. policies and procedures are there. I am intriqued by how they adjusted the watches withou timing screws as found in the early watches.

    I did not bookmark the Elgin site as I am interested in Hamilton "only"; but I was also looking for contemporary stnadards. I will see if I can retrace.
     
  13. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User

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  14. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    Thank you.

    Robert
     
  15. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    I've a difficult time with advertisements, etc before 1910 or so....

    The 1911 Hamilton Timekeeper has a decent section describing manufacturing and finishing
    courtesy NAWCC Library.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    The Elgin Adjustment Numbers on shown on Wayne Schlitt's Elgin website are, as he says on the page to which you linked, "a reproduction of a document used by Elgin in their internal records to describe how a grade of watch was to be adjusted." Unfortunately, if the document was dated, Wayne didn't choose to give that date.

    The information itself isn't easily dated. As an example, Adjustment Number 10 is listed as being adjustment to 5 positions. Going to The Elgin Master Records, the grade No. 214 (18-size, 23 Jewel Veritas) is shown to have an Adjustment Number 10 on the Description of Movement No. 214 sheet (the note is the 8th from the bottom of the right-hand column). Unfortunately, this document isn't dated.

    The bottom line is that we can't be sure that the information goes back to before the 1906-1908 era when many railroads started requiring adjustment to 5 positions and being marked as such.

    By the way, I believe that the majority of the various grades from many manufacturers whose movements were later marked to be adjusted to 5 positions probably had always been adjusted to 5 positions. The problem is that without specific dated documents (which includes ads and catalog sheets), we can't be sure that this was so.
     
  17. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Thanks Terry, but this came later, when the movements were already marked "Adjusted 5 Positions"

    In earlier material (and not just for Hamilton), all that's said was "Adjusted to Temperature, Isochronism (when appropriate) and Positions." If the movements were adjusted to five positions, why didn't they say so?

    1899_Apr-12_Hamilton_New_21J.jpg
     
  18. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    Yep.... was the earliest i could find to give the adjustments...
     
  19. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    Kent,

    I've searched the Halligan Files and the grade 964 was the only movement that I could find that comes close to answering your question. It was only produced from 1901 to 1904 with a total of 300 movements. The problem is that a few were sold after 1904 when production ceased. So, I'm not sure when the second description was written that included "adjusted to 5 positions".

    If, for example, it was only adjusted to "3 positions" originally, it would have required re-adjustment to "5 positions" sometime later after it was finished.

    Robert

    Hamilton 964.jpg
     
  20. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    More on the subject of adjustment to positions has been posted in the thread entitled "Hamilton watches", starting at Post #22.
     

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