Hamburg American Clocks

[Kagey60]

Hi all, thanks for having me on the website!
I inherited a HAC clock about ten years ago, from my grand-parents via my parents. I remember it well on their wall when I was a child in the early 1960's. It strikes on the hour and half hour and has a separate wind (the left hand one) for the strike, and loses about 5 mins a day!
Other than that, I have no information, but would be grateful if someone could date it for me, and maybe give me a rough idea of worth? I'm not looking to sell as it will go to my daughter eventually, but I'm interested in it's history and value, or initial cost.
It has a brass HAC & the arrows label inside the case, on the bottom, and is stamped on the top with gold numbers/letters, a few of which are illegible, but I can make out 1078 which (from what I've gleaned so far) may be the model number?
I have attached pictures and would be happy to take more if required.
Thanks for any help.
Karen

 

[JTD]

Welcome to the board, Karen.

You have, as you know, a German HAC clock, the style is commonly known as a German box clock. It probably dates from between the wars, 1930s.

Losing 5 minutes a day is quite a lot. You can improve the timekeeping by adjusting the nut at the bottom of the pendulum, below the round bob. By turning the knob clockwise you will raise the pendulum bob a little, which will cause the clock to go faster. (Turning the knob anti-clockwise makes it go slower).

Although you can probably get a better result by using this adjustment, if the clock has not been serviced for many years, it would benefit from a cleaning and overhaul by a clockmaker.

Yoou wondered about the original cost: there are folks on here who have access to the books and catalogs which may have the original price and they will do doubt be long shortly if they can help. As to its present value, I can only say 'not very much' (you could look on ebay under 'completed sales' to see what similar clocks sell for) but as a family heirloom it is priceless.

JTD

 

[Kagey60]

Hi JTD,
I did have it serviced (at great expense!) about 3 years ago, but it didn't improve the timekeeping, sadly. I will tweak the nut as you mention over the next week or so and see what happens.
Thanks for the info,
Karen

 

[JTD]

Hi JTD,
I did have it serviced (at great expense!) about 3 years ago, but it didn't improve the timekeeping, sadly. I will tweak the nut as you mention over the next week or so and see what happens.
Thanks for the info,
Karen

Well, that's good to hear, it shouldn't need servicing again for a while.

Yes, try adjusting the timekeeping using the nut at the bottom of the pendulum - that is what it's for. You needn't turn it very much, it's trial and error, but since you already know it's losing 5 minutes a day, you can tell how things are progressing. Just continue until you get it pretty much right - you can't expect the accuracy of a quartz movement, but you should be able to get it down to a few minutes a week, if not better.

Let us know how you get on.

JTD

 

[Fonda C Jones]

Hello everyone. I joined last year when we purchased a house full of stuff, including a few clocks, which was the start of my fascination with old clocks. Recently I purchased a few at a moving sale, two are Seth Thomas and this one, which I believe may be an HAC due to the mark on the movement? I'm posting pictures in hopes that you can help me as I can't find this clock anywhere online. I want to take it apart and clean it because it is filthy, but I haven't mastered that skill so I'm leaving well enough alone for now, especially since it still works! Any help with identifying this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[Micam100]

Hello Fonda C, yes that’s the HAC logo. I don’t see a date stamp and I believe HAC movements were not date stamped until the purchase by Junghans around 1930 so this may pre date that. Others who are more knowledgeable will have a better idea of age.

You say it still works…does it keep time? That tail of balance spring doesn’t look good to me and it looks as if the adjustment is all the way past the “Fast” setting.

Don’t run it for too long…just long enough to bond with it. All that dried up oil and debris will be doing damage while it runs. You have a few clocks now so gaining the skill to maintain them will be an asset.

You will find plenty of people here who will willingly help.


Michael

 

[Royce]

Michael,
I couldn't have said it better!!

BTW, welcome to the message board Fonda!! You will find the folks here most willing to assist you anyway that they can. And they know what they are talking about. Great message board.

 

[Fonda C Jones]

Hello Fonda C, yes that’s the HAC logo. I don’t see a date stamp and I believe HAC movements were not date stamped until the purchase by Junghans around 1930 so this may pre date that. Others who are more knowledgeable will have a better idea of age.

You say it still works…does it keep time? That tail of balance spring doesn’t look good to me and it looks as if the adjustment is all the way past the “Fast” setting.

Don’t run it for too long…just long enough to bond with it. All that dried up oil and debris will be doing damage while it runs. You have a few clocks now so gaining the skill to maintain them will be an asset.

You will find plenty of people here who will willingly help.


Michael

Yes, it keeps time, I was absolutely shocked! I got it along with a couple of other clocks I've been tinkering with and kind of put it to the side until I had the time to dedicate to researching it today. It seems to be in pretty rough condition, which is not in my wheelhouse just yet to fix so I'll put it back to the side. Thank you for your expertise, this group is amazing!

 

[Chronos2021]

Hi folks,

I've just finished this HAC, a Nr. 1063 with Nr. 36 movement,
Nr. 3 Gong and a walnut case.
The clock should be from around 1925 (?).

Hi Soaringjoy,

it is nearly 11 years later that im discovered exactly the same nice clock with a great history. I have evidence that my clock has been Gong check in 1928. Inside the case I found a label dated from Feb 1929 that told me this clock was sold in kingdom Jugoslavia, procince Verbas today in North Serbia nearby Banja Luka. The nice women that sold me this clock told me that she got it from her passed away uncle. The curious thing is that her family came from Slesia (refugees afer world war II) and she granted to me that noboy had a stay on the Balcan's, never. This clocke went to many hands and survived ther terrible war, cold war and is still in good sahpe. I am living in Berlin area today. The clock is curently at a clock mechanic to get refurbished.

I was struggling to find some old catalogues to identify my clock. Unfortunately there is nobody in other fora that could help me. Only some guess ... e.g. Gustav Becker. Your post gave me the first confirmation what it is. Do you know more about this type of clock? How many units have been produced? What is the trading value today? I am interested in everthing what is availabe information.

Sincerely yours

Chronos 2021

 

[new2clocks]

Hi Soaringjoy,

Welcome to the forum.

Soaringjoy has not been on these forums in almost six years and is unlikely to respond to your requests.

If you show us pictures of the back of the movement, perhaps we can assist you.

Regards.

 

[Chronos2021]

Welcome to the forum.

Soaringjoy has not been on these forums in almost six years and is unlikely to respond to your requests.

If you show us pictures of the back of the movement, perhaps we can assist you.

Regards.

It is definately a Cross Arrow "Pfeilkreuz" . Identical appearence as published by Soaringjoy - see his/her pic's.

Re, Chronos2021

 

[new2clocks]

I have evidence that my clock has been Gong check in 1928. Inside the case I found a label dated from Feb 1929 that told me this clock was sold

The dates you list above were during the period that HAC / HAU were in collaboration with Junghans prior to the Junghans acquisition of HAC in 1930. On some of the HAC movements produced during the this time period (and shortly after the Junghans acquisition), the HAC movements were date coded on the backplate. If your movement has such date code, we could narrow the date of manufacture. This is one reason why I requested a picture of the backplate.

How many units have been produced?

I am not aware of any data that exists to correctly answer this question. HAC, however, was one of the most prolific clock manufacturers and as such, I suspect that quite a few of this type were produced by HAC and/or the others in the trade (cabinetmakers, retailers. wholesalers, etc.) who purchased loose movements from HAC to encase in their cabinets.

Regards.

 

[Chronos2021]

The dates you list above were during the period that HAC / HAU were in collaboration with Junghans prior to the Junghans acquisition of HAC in 1930. On some of the HAC movements produced during the this time period (and shortly after the Junghans acquisition), the HAC movements were date coded on the backplate. If your movement has such date code, we could narrow the date of manufacture. This is one reason why I requested a picture of the backplate.



I am not aware of any data that exists to correctly answer this question. HAC, however, was one of the most prolific clock manufacturers and as such, I suspect that quite a few of this type were produced by HAC and/or the others in the trade (cabinetmakers, retailers. wholesalers, etc.) who purchased loose movements from HAC to encase in their cabinets.

Regards.

Thank you for your advice. I have to talk to my clock mechanic that he send me a pic. I am sure that I have already discovered a 2 digit number at the backplate. Is this what you mean? It will last some days but I will definately come back with a feedback. I appreciate your help.

Re, Chronos2021

 

[Rockin Ronnie]

Is this a HAC?
The gong block looks similar to a couple I have seen in this thread. No trademark anywhere. Auction photos used with permission.

 

[Chronos2021]

Thank you for your advice. I have to talk to my clock mechanic that he send me a pic. I am sure that I have already discovered a 2 digit number at the backplate. Is this what you mean? It will last some days but I will definately come back with a feedback. I appreciate your help.

Re, Chronos2021

Thank you for your advice. I have to talk to my clock mechanic that he send me a pic. I am sure that I have already discovered a 2 digit number at the backplate. Is this what you mean? It will last some days but I will definately come back with a feedback. I appreciate your help.

Re, Chronos2021

Hi,

so I am back again after a chat with my clock mechanic. He told me that on the backplate of the movement are the following numbers listed below line by line.

117, 30
12, 26
300

It is for sure a cross arrow engraved on the backplate. (The numbers are also engraved.)

The clock mechanic's view is that he numbers are refereing to perpendulum weight and length.

I am very looking foreward to hear from you waht those figures say to us.

All the best

Chronos 2021

 

[new2clocks]

Hi,

so I am back again after a chat with my clock mechanic. He told me that on the backplate of the movement are the following numbers listed below line by line.

117, 30
12, 26
300

It is for sure a cross arrow engraved on the backplate. (The numbers are also engraved.)

The clock mechanic's view is that he numbers are refereing to perpendulum weight and length.

I am very looking foreward to hear from you waht those figures say to us.

All the best

Chronos 2021

The 117 should be bpm, 30 the number of EW teeth, and 300 should be the pendulum length in millimeters.

The 12, 26 could be a date code (December of 1926). I believe that a 1927 date code is the earliest pre-acquisition collaboration (that I mentioned earlier) date code that we have seen on these forums.

Please see if your clock repairman can provide you a picture of the backplate with the 12, 26 inscription.

Thank you and regards.

 

[Chronos2021]

The 117 should be bpm, 30 the number of EW teeth, and 300 should be the pendulum length in millimeters.

The 12, 26 could be a date code (December of 1926). I believe that a 1927 date code is the earliest pre-acquisition collaboration (that I mentioned earlier) date code that we have seen on these forums.

Please see if your clock repairman can provide you a picture of the backplate with the 12, 26 inscription.

Thank you and regards.

Thank you - this is quite interesting. So it looks like that we are breaking new ground - exciting. I will contact him in the next days and take the picture by myself. Pls be patient and stay curious.

By the way I am struggling a bit with the short terms. For my benefit can you let me know an definition of EW and bpm.


Kind regards

Chronos2021

 

[new2clocks]

Thank you - this is quite interesting. So it looks like that we are breaking new ground - exciting. I will contact him in the next days and take the picture by myself. Pls be patient and stay curious.

By the way I am struggling a bit with the short terms. For my benefit can you let me know an definition of EW and bpm.


Kind regards

Chronos2021

EW is the Escape Wheel.

BPM is Beats per Minute.

Regards.

 

[Rockin Ronnie]

Is this a HAC? View attachment 636345
View attachment 636346 The gong block looks similar to a couple I have seen in this thread. No trademark anywhere. Auction photos used with permission. View attachment 636347

Received the clock today.

It has the cross arrows on the movement backplate. So, definitely a HAC. Strange that the movement is screwed to the front panel by means of brackets rather than sitting on a seat board as per other German mantel clocks. It is running and striking but definitely requires a good cleaning.

Year and model name?

Ron

 

[new2clocks]

Year and model name

Ron,

Please provide pictures of the backplate with an unobstructed view of the backplate and a picture of the gong block with the gong unattached.

Thanks and regards.

 

[Rockin Ronnie]

As requested. There is a "made in Germany #3313" tag on the bottom of the case.

Ron

 

[new2clocks]

Ron,

Thanks for the additional pictures.

Most HAC / HAU movements are difficult to date, especially those that were made before the Junghans acquisition (1930) and the HAC / Junghans collaboration (late 1920s).

There are HAC / HAU catalogs available and perhaps someone can identify your clock based on those catalogs. This would give you a good "circa" date for your clock.

The crossed arrows trademark was registered in 1892, so that is our starting point. By looks, I would guess late 1890s to early 1900s, but again, this is just a guess.

I was hoping to see a name on the gong block, as HAC / HAU did register certain gong blocks. This could perhaps narrow the date of manufacture, but I see no name on the gong block.

I could also research the movement so you would at least know the model number of the movement. This could perhaps narrow the date, but HAC (and Junghans post-acquisition) used the same movements for many years, so I doubt this would narrow your date of manufacture.

Regards.

 

[Rockin Ronnie]

Thanks for your response. No, there is nothing on the gong block. Yes, the model number would help.

Ron

 

[Chronos2021]

Ron,
if I compare your movement with my one where we are quite sure it is made between 1926 and 1928 your's a more handmade piece of work. The holding plates both front and back are looking more as a rough sheet metal piece. My ones are much more industialised with a lot of punch outs to have better access to the gears and save weight. Your movement looks semi-industialised driven by house style manufacturing capabilities.

I believe this is a clock definately before the co-operation between GB and Junghans due to the little bit old style handmade appearance - but nice to see a lower level techology movement. That is a good example for the art of handmade products - simple, roboust and easy to understand -craftsmanship as we say in Germany.

I would also agree that the movement is made around the turn of century, where industrialisation was at the very beginning.

Kind regards

Chronos2021.

 

[Rockin Ronnie]

Ron,
if I compare your movement with my one where we are quite sure it is made between 1926 and 1928 your's a more handmade piece of work. The holding plates both front and back are looking more as a rough sheet metal piece. My ones are much more industialised with a lot of punch outs to have better access to the gears and save weight. Your movement looks semi-industialised driven by house style manufacturing capabilities.

I believe this is a clock definately before the co-operation between GB and Junghans due to the little bit old style handmade appearance - but nice to see a lower level techology movement. That is a good example for the art of handmade products - simple, roboust and easy to understand -craftsmanship as we say in Germany.

I would also agree that the movement is made around the turn of century, where industrialisation was at the very beginning.

Kind regards

Chronos2021.

Very helpful. Yes, the movement looks quite robust. Despite being veryu dirty there does not appear to be a lot of wear but I will know better once it is apart.

 

[Vint]

As requested. There is a "made in Germany #3313" tag on the bottom of the case.

Ron

View attachment 637507 View attachment 637508 View attachment 637510 View attachment 637511 View attachment 637512

I have the same movement in my HAC that I just recently disassembled, cleaned and reassembled. The only issue I’m having is that the clock strikes 10 minutes early despite my adjustment of the minute hand. I’m curious if your clock does this by chance?

 

[JTD]

The only issue I’m having is that the clock strikes 10 minutes early despite my adjustment of the minute hand. I’m curious if your clock does this by chance?

How did you adjust the hand? You should be able to turn the collet to the desired position. Sometimes turning the hand over will also solve the problem.

JTD

 

[Rockin Ronnie]

If the OP has the same minute hand, there is no collet and the hands are not meant to be reversed.

 

[JTD]

If the OP has the same minute hand, there is no collet and the hands are not meant to be reversed.

View attachment 641024 View attachment 641025

That's why I asked how he adjusted it.

JTD

 

[Royce]

It would seem to me, if one doesn't have a collet on the minute hand to allow an adjustment, then the adjustment would be made by rotating the lifting cam until it strikes at the top of the hour. He indicates that it is early by 10 minutes so the adjustment of the lifting cam would be (1/6*360 = 60 degrees) clockwise. I think.

Royce

 

[Vint]

I took the movement out of the case and have had it on my test stand all day. If it is 7:00 it won’t strike until 7:20 for the hour. Thirty minutes later it strikes the half hour at 7:50...... it doesn’t have a collet. I’m still perplexed about the center shaft/ cannon pinion having a small flat section in the middle on both sides of the center shaft. Why? Is this for adjustment purposes?

 

[sundance creek]

View attachment 474059 View attachment 474060 View attachment 474061 View attachment 474062 New to the forum I would like to share pictures of my HAC clock. And ofcourse I am curious about any facts about this clock like age, type of the mechanism etcetera.

wow. I am confused. I have an opportunity to buy a clock identical to this with 1 difference. the paper label is the same, but with an additional stamp, saying 'dec2 1981'. same 3109. same label. doesnt appear to be stuck on top of HAC. it actually looks like a stamp dec 2 1981. they are only asking $80 so I will try to get it

 

[Ken4]

wow. I am confused. I have an opportunity to buy a clock identical to this with 1 difference. the paper label is the same, but with an additional stamp, saying 'dec2 1981'. same 3109. same label. doesnt appear to be stuck on top of HAC. it actually looks like a stamp dec 2 1981. they are only asking $80 so I will try to get it

I have a clock like the one pictured only the top finial is different and is not roman numerals.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/my-greenwich-clock.169608/

 

[sundance creek]

ken4

thats the same clock I got but HAC/crossed arrows

my bro pict it up for me and will bring it to me easter

I live a few hundred miles north of him

 

[Jacko101]

Hello, thanks for having me on the forum. I have today purchased a wall clock, described as "Vienna" style. It was not working and was really just a project to keep me interested in something. it is not a particularly exciting clock and needs some attention. As I was working on it I was looking for markings, the only markings I can find are "crossed arrows". A little research has found me here, I would really appreciate it if anyone was able to shed any light on this old thing.

 

[new2clocks]

Hello, thanks for having me on the forum. I have today purchased a wall clock, described as "Vienna" style. It was not working and was really just a project to keep me interested in something. it is not a particularly exciting clock and needs some attention. As I was working on it I was looking for markings, the only markings I can find are "crossed arrows". A little research has found me here, I would really appreciate it if anyone was able to shed any light on this old thing. View attachment 647687 View attachment 647688 View attachment 647686

Welcome to the forum.

The crossed arrows trademark are that of Hamburg American - HAC / HAU.

The trademark was registered in 1891, so your clock is not older than that year. The mark was used for many years, so your clock could also be newer than 1891.

What type of specific information are you seeking?

Regards.

 

[Jacko101]

Welcome to the forum.

The crossed arrows trademark are that of Hamburg American - HAC / HAU.

The trademark was registered in 1891, so your clock is not older than that year. The mark was used for many years, so your clock could also be newer than 1891.

What type of specific information are you seeking?

Regards.

I am really just curious about this clock, I bought it as a project to fix and restore. What I don't want to do is to go overboard on a clock that has historic value. Ie I don't want to go replacing clock face, which is in poor condition, and therefore spoil its history.
It also has an unusual pendulum that I can't find any images of on internet, curious.

 

[new2clocks]

I am really just curious about this clock, I bought it as a project to fix and restore. What I don't want to do is to go overboard on a clock that has historic value. Ie I don't want to go replacing clock face, which is in poor condition, and therefore spoil its history.
It also has an unusual pendulum that I can't find any images of on internet, curious.

View attachment 647702

HAC / HAU were one of the most prolific clockmakers in the world. You have a Vienna style wall clock (it is not a regulator), of which many, many were made, by both HAC and other clock companies.

I do not believe the pendulum is original to the clock.

Others may have different opinions.

Regards.

 

[JTD]

What I don't want to do is to go overboard on a clock that has historic value.

In my opinion this clock has no particular historic value and the case is nothing unusual.
The movement is a very simple one, one of the cheapest that HAC made and I was rather surprised to see it in this clock.

However, if you overhaul the clock yourself and are pleased with the result, then you will have added inestimable value to it - and it will help you to understand the basics of clock repairing (I am assuming you have not very much experience - excuse if I am wrong). You will be able to look at it and say 'I did that' and that will be its value to you.

I don't want to go replacing clock face, which is in poor condition,

I would suggest that you do not replace the dial - it is in good enough condition and has an unusual centre, so leave well alone.

JTD

 

[Jacko101]

In my opinion this clock has no particular historic value and the case is nothing unusual.
The movement is a very simple one, one of the cheapest that HAC made and I was rather surprised to see it in this clock.

However, if you overhaul the clock yourself and are pleased with the result, then you will have added inestimable value to it - and it will help you to understand the basics of clock repairing (I am assuming you have not very much experience - excuse if I am wrong). You will be able to look at it and say 'I did that' and that will be its value to you.



I would suggest that you do not replace the dial - it is in good enough condition and has an unusual centre, so leave well alone.

JTD

Many thanks for the comments. You are correct about experience, none, but have fixed all kinds of mechanical things all my life. capable at woodwork too. I am enjoying the project. Some one has obviously tried before with this clock, it has signs of not great repairs (bent nail holding the fingers on).
Hoping to bring some life back to it and learn a few things along the way.