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Hamburg American Clocks

chronologiker

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Jun 28, 2017
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Hello Chronologiker,

Thank you so much for the very interesting update. We now wonder where the movement was from 1925 to 1938!

Thank you again, regards,

Brendan 4285
Brendan, I think that Winterhalter had to file for bankruptcy in 1925, because this year was inflation in Germany.

And if a company has to file for bankruptcy or insolvency, then a settlement must first be made with the creditors. This can take a long time. And so long may existing goods not be sold.

This could explain that your movement was already made around 1925, but was assembled much later in a case and sold.

Chronologiker
 

Pedro Nuno

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Dec 29, 2017
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Hi everyone,

I recently find this Hamburg American Clock at my parents house. I found some interesting information here, but I hope someone can help me find more about this clock.
It has marked in the movement 164/36 (164 should be bpm and 36 should be the number of teeth on the escape wheel.
And 8,12 which I presume should be the date (August 1912).
If someone here can tell me more about this model?
Thanks in advance.

m1zxPpeWqtBl7x1eTyU8khQ.jpg WP_20171202_16_43_44_Rich.jpg
 

steve1a

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Jan 6, 2018
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Hi any one no what year this hac, movement is ,the only numbers are 26/385. on the movement, thanks Steve. DSCN0148.JPG DSCN0147.JPG
 

GHJ

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Apr 29, 2018
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image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg New to the forum I would like to share pictures of my HAC clock. And ofcourse I am curious about any facts about this clock like age, type of the mechanism etcetera.
 

GT.NZ

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Jul 18, 2015
160
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Hi Guys, On 23 November 2012 Shimmystep posted a picture of a spring regulator he'd restored. I have the same model case. Does anyone know when these cases were made? I've not taken the movement out for several months and I'm a bit reluctant to take it out again now! I have a crown for it but it's new and I'm waiting till I have the courage to test some stains on the back before staining the front and sides. My clock has an erratic strike. Sometimes the warn will set off the strike and won't stop till I stop it. After that it strikes in sequence but, of course, it may be several hours different from the time.

Glyn

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igoanatol

Registered User
May 11, 2018
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Hi everyone,
this is my HAU № 3321 (right) and Tomas Haller (left).
Dimensions approx.: 28 cm wide, 16 cm deep, 41 cm high and 5 kg (HAU only)))
I think my HAU is 1910- 1920.
Thanks)))
HAU.jpg 1.jpg 3.jpg 2.jpg
 

Mike Dawson

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Jul 21, 2018
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Hi Kevin,
I was intrigued by your clock, but couldn't make out the detail because the photo was dark. So I took the liberty of "opening up" the shot so people can see it.
c.
I have the same clock (missing the chime) down to the missing "wave" trim on the left side of the bottom glass.

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Mike Dawson

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Jul 21, 2018
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In RE: post #360, I just noticed that my clock has only one winding post and therefore never had chimes in the first place. I found a piece of trim wood at the local home center that matched the missing beaded piece on the bottom glass with a minimum of modification.
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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In RE: post #360, I just noticed that my clock has only one winding post and therefore never had chimes in the first place. I found a piece of trim wood at the local home center that matched the missing beaded piece on the bottom glass with a minimum of modification.
Hello, Mike, and welcome to the board.

You are correct in saying that one winding arbor indicates that the clock is time only.

Two winding arbors indicates that the clock is time and strike ("T&S").

Three winding arbors indicates that the clock is a T&S with a chiming function.

Chiming pertains to musical notes, such as Westminster chimes, being played on the quarter hours. Striking pertains to the striking on the hours of the time of day - seven strikes for 7:00, etc. Some clocks that strike will also strike once on the half hour.

Hope this helps!

Regards.
 

Mdlock

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Aug 29, 2018
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Can anyone help me with this clock. I believe it to be very early.

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new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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Mdlock,

Welcome to the board.

Your clock movement was made by HAC (Hamburg American). The movement, and possibly the case, was imported by Geo. Borgfeldt & Co, of New York. I say this because the sticker on the case - "Celebrate" - was a Trade Mark registered by Geo. Borgfeldt & Co. in 1926, according to the Mikrolisk website of trademarks.

Geo. Borgfeldt & Co. was in business utilizing that corporate name until 1933, as far as we know. After that, they did business as George Borgfeldt Corporation. A change in the name of the company would not preclude the company from using that TM.

So it seems safe to say that your clock is not earlier than 1926. HAC was purchased by Junghans in 1930 and at some point the HAC trademark (the crossed arrows) was no longer used.

So it is reasonable to say the clock was made between 1926 and 1933 although it could be a bit later.

John Hubby of the board has been accumulating data on Borgfeldt and may have more updated information than that which I have supplied.

Regards.
 

Johnny D

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Mar 28, 2019
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My wifes grandma has this HAC. I am not sure what model or year it is? Is the wood box/frame original? Some of the parts from the movement are missing. Any idea where to find parts? Would like to get this old thing up and running again :) It has the "crossed arrows". It has some letters just below the 6 on the face, but can't make it out exactly and has some numbers stamped on the movement.

20190328_191944.jpg 20190328_191955.jpg 20190328_155000.jpg 20190328_192031.jpg 20190328_155059.jpg
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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My wifes grandma has this HAC. I am not sure what model or year it is? Is the wood box/frame original? Some of the parts from the movement are missing. Any idea where to find parts? Would like to get this old thing up and running again :) It has the "crossed arrows". It has some letters just below the 6 on the face, but can't make it out exactly and has some numbers stamped on the movement.

View attachment 525670 View attachment 525671 View attachment 525672 View attachment 525673 View attachment 525674
Hello Johnny, and welcome to the board.

As you know, your clock has the trademark of the Hamburg American Clock Company ("HAC"), a German clock manufacturer. It was manufactured in March of 1934, after the acquisition of HAC by Junghans, another German clock manufacturer.

Your clock was manufactured for export to the U.K.

The case appears proper for the dial and the age of the clock.

Any repair questions would most likely receive better exposure in the "Clock Repair" forum.

Regards.
 

Johnny D

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Mar 28, 2019
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Hello Johnny, and welcome to the board.

As you know, your clock has the trademark of the Hamburg American Clock Company ("HAC"), a German clock manufacturer. It was manufactured in March of 1934, after the acquisition of HAC by Junghans, another German clock manufacturer.

Your clock was manufactured for export to the U.K.

The case appears proper for the dial and the age of the clock.

Any repair questions would most likely receive better exposure in the "Clock Repair" forum.

Regards.
Do you know what model it is? I'd love to see a picture of it from the catalog, if it's possible :)

Thanks for the help!
 

new2clocks

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Do you know what model it is? I'd love to see a picture of it from the catalog, if it's possible :)

Thanks for the help!
Unlike many American clockmakers, most German makers did not have names for their clocks. Whether HAC / Junghans named their models, I do not know. Someone may have a catalog and could provide a model name if HAC / Junghans named their clocks.

Regards.
 
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Rabaks

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Feb 6, 2015
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Picked this lovely clock up at a recent auction. It was cataloged as "German Mantel clock, circa 1900, with cream dial in walnut case, striking on a gong" Spent a couple of hours going through this forum but couldn't see anything similar, (especially the hands). Anyone have any information about this one? Numbers on movement are 164/42 130. Keeping good time!
Thanks
hac1w.jpg hac2w.jpg
 

JTD

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Sep 27, 2005
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Picked this lovely clock up at a recent auction. It was cataloged as "German Mantel clock, circa 1900, with cream dial in walnut case, striking on a gong" Spent a couple of hours going through this forum but couldn't see anything similar, (especially the hands). Anyone have any information about this one? Numbers on movement are 164/42 130. Keeping good time!
Thanks
View attachment 542826 View attachment 542827

Welcome to the board.

I would say the date of 1900 is about right. I don't think the hands are original.

JTD
 

Andyjon100

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Jun 14, 2014
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Hello everyone! I just picked up this little Hamburg American Clock (It has the crossed arrows) and have a few questions I'm hoping someone can answer for me. It is small, only 10" tall, has an enamel face, and some beautiful marquetry. Inside, it is written that it was bought brand new in 1900 -1910 in St. Catherines - would that be an accurate timeframe for this clock, or is it someone's "recollection"?
As you can see, it's missing it's hands. What would be the appropriate style of hands for this? The biggest issue I can see is the great wheel is missing teeth, and there's evidence that someone in the past tried to repair them with solder. I also need a key, but am unsure how to determine the correct size I need. Did this have a model name or number? Where might I source the parts I need for it, particularly the spring/wheel (I assume they're an assembly on this?) Any help is greatly appreciated! Thank You!

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JTD

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I think the date you quote is probably about right.

You can get the spring barrel repaired by a specialist clock repairer. You could ask your local NAWCC chapter for a suggestion as to who could do it for you.

As to the hands, I am not sure what style hands were there originally, but spade hands would, in my opinion, not be out of place as replacements. Keys are easily available from clock material suppliers (you can measure across the flats of the winding arbors to find the size) or you could take the clock to a local clock maker who might well have a hoard of spare keys.

JTD
 

Andyjon100

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Thank you for the advice, but I actually wanted to learn and try to repair it myself. It's small, there's no chime train so there isn't a lot going on, and I paid $1 for it. I know of a reliable clock place here - I can take it in if I get in over my head.:(
 

claussclocks

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Mar 14, 2013
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You can replace those barrel teeth yourself but they can be a challenge. Cleaning and reassembly of that clock should pose you little problem but you might end up having someone re-cut that barrel gear as opposed to replacing the teeth. In case you don't know those barrels are soldered to the gear. If you intend to cut a brass plug and re-cut the teeth it might be easier to separate the barrel and work with just the gear then re-marry them once the repair is finished.

By the way, Very nice clock. I really like Hamburg American Clocks. I own several and most were very well made.

DPC
 

Andyjon100

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Thank you for the insight, but I'm not equipped to do machine work ( as far as cutting gears). I was hoping to be able to find a replacement barrel/gear assembly. As you can see by the solder, there was an attempt to repair the teeth long ago - I found most of them in the bottom of the clock. I can't imagine how someone would think solder could withstand the stresses exerted on the teeth of that gear..... Thank you for the compliment on the clock. It is really a cute little clock, only 10" high... I've done some searching for hands, and it looks like it may be a bit more difficult than I thought to find such small hands (1 1/8" minute hand with a friction fit square shaft). Some fabrication might be in order....
 

JTD

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I'm not equipped to do machine work ( as far as cutting gears)
There are plenty of people who could do it for you - some specialise in gear cutting. If you say where you are located, someone here might be able to help or point you in the right direction.

JTD
 

Andyjon100

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I'm in Buffalo, NY. I was curious to see if any of the barrel/gear assemblies they have at Timesavers would work - but I haven't disassembled mine yet to measure it or count teeth....
 

turboflyer

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Feb 17, 2016
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Have been working on this for awhile. Still a ways to go. I guess I love to see the movements as much , some times more than the case. I have this HAC and one wall model. This one is one of my favorites.
I do have a question on the movement beat rate. Also a pic of the correct fly would be great. This one can’t be right. Way to fast. This may be an L28 movement to but I honestly do not know. I purchased it like a pig with poke but I do have some lipstick hopeful it will be a purse one day.
Not much out there I can find on this model. Any help appreciated. I have the original bob, pretty messed up though. I just like the look and hey I had one.

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J. A. Olson

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Had this Hammy for a while and got it out of storage recently. 3/4 Westminster chime movement in a nice upright case. Good runner when it behaves and keeps time well. Standing alongside is a Herschede tambour.

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cyruswv

Registered User
Dec 7, 2006
46
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Just finished this Hamburg American Regulator. Appears to be all original. Movement is stamped with 102/26 for beat rate and escape wheel teeth plus 385 for drop in mm. This movement is also dated 7,15. The model number is 694.

Does anyone have a HAC catalog listing of this model they could share? I have tried to obtain the Victor Tang catalogs with no success. Thanks for any help you can offer.
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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View attachment 587034
Just finished this Hamburg American Regulator. Appears to be all original. Movement is stamped with 102/26 for beat rate and escape wheel teeth plus 385 for drop in mm. This movement is also dated 7,15. The model number is 694.

Does anyone have a HAC catalog listing of this model they could share? I have tried to obtain the Victor Tang catalogs with no success. Thanks for any help you can offer.
Would you kindly provide a picture of the back of the movement?

Thanks and regards.
 

cyruswv

Registered User
Dec 7, 2006
46
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Just finished this Hamburg American Regulator. Appears to be all original. Movement is stamped with 102/26 for beat rate and escxape wheel teeth plus 385 for drop in mm. This movement is also dated 7,15. The model number is 694.

Does anyone have a HAC catalog listing of this model they could share? I have tried to obtain the Victor Tang catalogs with no success. Thanks for any help you can offer.
 

cyruswv

Registered User
Dec 7, 2006
46
1
8
E7C15821-281C-42A0-B6B5-A43455463972.jpeg
Date code is on back plate just left of time side arbor. It doesn’t show up clearly in the previous photo. I took this photo before cleaning the movement. I’ll try to post an enlargement of the date. The case has the original paper label on the back with No. 694.
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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View attachment 587128
Date code is on back plate just left of time side arbor. It doesn’t show up clearly in the previous photo. I took this photo before cleaning the movement. I’ll try to post an enlargement of the date. The case has the original paper label on the back with No. 694.
Thanks again.

The label on the back of the case would most likely indicate the model number of the whole clock and is most likely not the model of the movement. HAC / HAU did have model numbers of their movements, but I am not familiar with a movement number 694.

I do not believe that the "7,15" is an HAC / HAU date code for a few reasons:

- with the exception of some alarm clocks, it does not appear that HAC / HAU date coded their clocks until after HAC / HAU was taken over by Junghans in 1930. There are a few examples of date coding during the time period of the late 1920s when HAC / HAU had a collaboration with Junghans and a few HAC clocks began to have date codes

- although the "5" in the "7,15" is difficult to see, it does not appear to be the same font as the "5" in the upper left hand corner of the back plate. The "7" also looks a bit off.

- although a comma would be proper for a German company in separating the month from the year, I would expect to see a dot or period. It is rare to see a comma used in markings of German clocks (at least I never have), especially when it would be stamped onto a brass movement.

As a result, I believe the "7,15" is most likely an after market engraving, possibly by the owner or repairman.

Ironically, I believe your clock to be of that era and quite possibly a bit prior to WWI.

Regards.
 

cyruswv

Registered User
Dec 7, 2006
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Thanks for your input. I was aware that No. 694 referred to the clock model and not the movement number. However, I do suspect 7,15 to be an original date code because I have seen other HAC clocks marked in this exact same way with dates that look period correct.

If 7,15 was stamped by a repairman that would merely make it older still and that is fine too. There actually is another marking on the back of the clock I didn’t include in my post. It is very nicely engraved rather than stamped and I do believe it to be the mark of a repairman.

Thanks again
 

Micam100

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Nov 11, 2019
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the double seatboard is something I have not seen in any other clock, 4 large brass headed knurled screws hold the movement to the upper and lower seatboards and 4 more brass headed screws hold the seatboards in the rails, there were clips to hold the gong rods still and locked, the clock was made to travel.
I bought this HAC longcase last week. It has the HAC logo on the face and on a plate inside the door. The logo is not on the movement however. It is very similar to the clock posted by dAz57 in 2012…post #207 on page 5 of this thread: Hamburg American Clocks

At some time the lower seat board was about 8mm higher than its present position and I’m wondering if the movement has been replaced. It has 2290 stamped on the back plate as well as a small roman numeral III engraved in the bottom left hand corner. On the front plate, the pivots for the fans and escape wheel arbors are set in eccentric adjusters. The fan blades are made up of two segments that are spring loaded to expand with centrifugal force.

In post #209, Jurgen said “There was a variety of options on movements, dials and door inserts, of course”

I’m wondering if this movement was one of the options and if not can anyone identify it?
Michael

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J. A. Olson

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The clock posted on page 5 is a true HAC movement. Your clock's movement looks like an older Kieninger going by the plate finishing, chime hammer "drum", and weight chain configuration which look just like the older Kieninger movements from the 1930's. As German companies tended to follow the same basics regarding movement patterns and mechanism setups, they tend to look almost alike from a general viewpoint. It is only through observation of smaller details can any maker's movements be told apart from one another.

The American firms such as Sessions and New Haven were quite adept at doing clocks the opposite way: make everything unique and complex. :chuckling:
 

Micam100

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The clock posted on page 5 is a true HAC movement. Your clock's movement looks like an older Kieninger going by the plate finishing, chime hammer "drum", and weight chain configuration which look just like the older Kieninger movements from the 1930's. As German companies tended to follow the same basics regarding movement patterns and mechanism setups, they tend to look almost alike from a general viewpoint. It is only through observation of smaller details can any maker's movements be told apart from one another.

The American firms such as Sessions and New Haven were quite adept at doing clocks the opposite way: make everything unique and complex. :chuckling:
OK Thanks. The case is identical to one of the two posted by Jurgen in post #209 so I guess around the same era 1920's or 1930's?...and movement replaced at some time? How is the quality of Kieninger movements?
 

J. A. Olson

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The older Kieninger movements from 1930-1960 or thereabouts are the same as any other mid-range German firm's movements: very good quality materials, simple but straightforward design, reliable runners, easy to service when the time comes. I don't know what would have caused the movement switch-up but sometimes one will find a barren case and adapt any movement to fit. The gong block also appears to be a replacement - HAC's stock patterns had a Gothic flower on the rod bank:

HAU3.jpg

While Kieninger movements were normally signed, this was not always applicable for movements made by wholesalers who demanded clocks be unsigned. Some other German companies at the time - E. Lauffer, Urgos, and Erhard Jauch - made very similar movements and they were not always signed either.

Mid 1920's to 1930's would be an acceptable date range for the case as HAC did not make many 4/4 quarter chime clocks prior to the Junghans co-op & eventual takeover. The Kieninger stuff would not pre-date 1930. It's a well done conversion and beats having barren parts laying around forever.
 

Micam100

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The older Kieninger movements from 1930-1960 or thereabouts are the same as any other mid-range German firm's movements: very good quality materials, simple but straightforward design, reliable runners, easy to service when the time comes. I don't know what would have caused the movement switch-up but sometimes one will find a barren case and adapt any movement to fit. The gong block also appears to be a replacement - HAC's stock patterns had a Gothic flower on the rod bank:

View attachment 589437

While Kieninger movements were normally signed, this was not always applicable for movements made by wholesalers who demanded clocks be unsigned. Some other German companies at the time - E. Lauffer, Urgos, and Erhard Jauch - made very similar movements and they were not always signed either.

Mid 1920's to 1930's would be an acceptable date range for the case as HAC did not make many 4/4 quarter chime clocks prior to the Junghans co-op & eventual takeover. The Kieninger stuff would not pre-date 1930. It's a well done conversion and beats having barren parts laying around forever.
You have an eagle's eye - to spot that chime block lurking in the dark. Thanks for your information and knowledge. It caught my eye because I have a HAC Westminister chiming mantle clock that belonged to my parents.
 
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Tobby

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Jun 28, 2016
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Case Front.jpg HAC-2.jpg HAC-3.jpg HAC-4.jpg
You all have some very nice HAC Clocks. Mine has seen its better days. I picked this little 30 hour cottage clock up a couple of years ago at a 2nd hand store for $40. With a little adjustment here and there, it runs and bongs just fine. It keeps very good time too.
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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View attachment 590793 View attachment 590795 View attachment 590794 View attachment 590796
You all have some very nice HAC Clocks. Mine has seen its better days. I picked this little 30 hour cottage clock up a couple of years ago at a 2nd hand store for $40. With a little adjustment here and there, it runs and bongs just fine. It keeps very good time too.
You have a very interesting HAC / HAU clock, based on the trademark that is imprinted on the backboard.

The crossed arrows trademark on the movement and dial was registered in 1892 and was used by HAC for many, many years.

The trademark on the backboard, however, is not seen very often. As I recall, I have only seen it twice on these boards.

Mikrolisk identifies the following, similar HAC trademark as being registered in 1886:

bildmarke_hamburgamerikanische8.jpg

There are differences between the above trademark and your trademark, specifically the use of the words "Made in
Württemberg" (on your trademark) as opposed to "Trade Mark" that is inscribed on the Mikrolisk trademark. This leads me to believe that the trademark on your backboard was registered no earlier than 1891.

All of this leads me to believe that your clock was made in the early part of the 1890s.

I will research a bit more about your backboard trademark and see what I can find. Perhaps others will have more, specific information.

Regards.
 

Tobby

Registered User
Jun 28, 2016
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You have a very interesting HAC / HAU clock, based on the trademark that is imprinted on the backboard.

The crossed arrows trademark on the movement and dial was registered in 1892 and was used by HAC for many, many years.

The trademark on the backboard, however, is not seen very often. As I recall, I have only seen it twice on these boards.

Mikrolisk identifies the following, similar HAC trademark as being registered in 1886:

View attachment 590800

There are differences between the above trademark and your trademark, specifically the use of the words "Made in
Württemberg" (on your trademark) as opposed to "Trade Mark" that is inscribed on the Mikrolisk trademark. This leads me to believe that the trademark on your backboard was registered no earlier than 1891.

All of this leads me to believe that your clock was made in the early part of the 1890s.

I will research a bit more about your backboard trademark and see what I can find. Perhaps others will have more, specific information.

Regards.
Thanks for the info. I'd never guess it was that old. I'm not sure if this would help you any but there are two other stickers on the back of the case. They are in very bad shape. Also there is a number 132 written on the inside of the case above the large Eagle/Trademark. Thanks again for your help.
HAC-6.jpg HAC-5.jpg
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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Thanks for the info. I'd never guess it was that old. I'm not sure if this would help you any but there are two other stickers on the back of the case. They are in very bad shape. Also there is a number 132 written on the inside of the case above the large Eagle/Trademark. Thanks again for your help.
View attachment 590814 View attachment 590815
The sticker is a fairly common attachment to HAC clocks. I wish the words under the line containing "Strike" were not lost. Perhaps they could have been helpful.

The number 132 looks to be applied by hand. The meaning of 132 is probably known only by the person who inscribed it. I will note that it was most likely written by a person from Europe (Germany or England would be my guess) based on the style of the number "1".

Regards.
 
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Ken4

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Here is my HAC. I have owned it for 52 years and brought it back from Germany in 1969 where I bought it. I really do not know how old it is so if anyone would like to take a guess it will be appreciated. I do not know what the numbers on the upper left plate of the movement are either. The "American" in the manufacturers name is a little odd to me because it was purchased in Germany.


HAC 001.JPG HAC 013.JPG HAC 007.JPG HAC 008.JPG
 

new2clocks

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Apr 25, 2005
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Here is my HAC. I have owned it for 52 years and brought it back from Germany in 1969 where I bought it. I really do not know how old it is so if anyone would like to take a guess it will be appreciated. I do not know what the numbers on the upper left plate of the movement are either. The "American" in the manufacturers name is a little odd to me because it was purchased in Germany.


View attachment 590835 View attachment 590836 View attachment 590837 View attachment 590838
Ken,

The "9/33" could be a date code. If so, it indicates that your clock was made in September, 1933.

HAC was purchased by Jughans in 1930. Junghans traditionally date coded their clocks. Prior to the Junghans acquisition, HAC did not date code their clocks, as best we know, with the exception of some small alarm clocks. Junghans continued to use the crossed arrows trademark of HAC after the acquisition and until the 1950s, I believe.

Hamburg-Amerikanische Uhrenfabrik (HAU) or, as it is known in English, Hamburg American Company (HAC), was neither American nor from Hamburg Germany.

It is believed that HAC used "American" in their name to describe their American type movements, which were less expensive to make than typical German movements and that name would presumably indicate to the buyer a more affordable clock.

I am not sure why they used "Hamburg" in their name. All I can guess is that Hamburg was the main port in Germany and would be more well known to the American (and possibly British) markets than any town in the Black Forest, where HAC was located.

Regards.
 
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