Marine: Ham 21 pre war?

Discussion in 'Chronometers' started by artbissell, Sep 20, 2015.

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  1. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    #1 artbissell, Sep 20, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
    Traded my 1941 serial 6549 near new with original balance corks 25 years ago for an Austrian fancy hunting rifle. Traded rifle for a finely engraved Colt Python pistol about 10 years past. Recently sold Python and widow of collector friend that recently died made sure I got it back for 1/3 of my Python's price. So expanding my watch collection so far this year with Waltham 37, and Hamilton 21 and 22, and an old small Parkinson & Frosham. Is my 21 a civilian version? My hi res photos will not load artbissell
     

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  2. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    According to Hamilton records, the first model 21 was finished in Feb. 1942. The same records indicate yours was made Oct. 12, of 1944. So it is not pre-war.
     
  3. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    #3 artbissell, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    Unable to load the line decorated movement photos in CHRONOMETER category and here. Marked 1941 with serial 6459. Unused condition. Was this one not originally made for war time use? artbissell

    IMG_3444a.jpg
     
  4. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    I typed wrong serial number is actually 6459. Again tried movement photos of 700 resolution without success. See on dial of enlarged 300 resolution photo here date of 1941. Movement photo easily reproduced in WATCHUSEEK Vintage Forum. Maybe 1942 first of U.S.
    military contracts? Art
     
  5. artbissell

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    Re: HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    Fine finished movement 700 resolution photos load easily in Watchuseek vintage forum. artbissell
     
  6. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    Re: HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    Should be ledger records available to obtain dating... most likely sold to will show a number, not a name.

    i believe there are size limits to images...... mod's can help there.
     
  7. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    #7 Dave Chaplain, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    Re: HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    Art,

    The Hamilton records state that 2E6459 (No. 6459) was finished and sold on Nov. 2, 1944, and was sold to "64-1618". Most if not all of the model 21 dials I've seen that were sent to the Navy have the "1941" on them. The ones I've seen with the dial marked "U.S. Maritime Commission" and "Property U. S. Army" do not have the "1941" included.

    Dave
     
  8. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Art,

    The Hamilton records state that 2E6459 (No. 6459) was finished and sold on Nov. 2, 1944, and was sold to "64-1618". Most if not all of the model 21 dials I've seen that were sent to the Navy have the "1941" on them. The ones I've seen with the dial marked "U.S. Maritime Commission" and "Property U. S. Army" do not have the "1941" included.

    Dave
     
  9. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    Serial number 2E6459 (as marked on the movement) was finished on November 2, 1944. Finished and sold on the same day. Feb. 27, 1942 was the delivery date of the first Hamilton model 21 chronometer. Every 21 I have ever seen or worked on has 1941 marked on the dial. I think that represents the year that the Navy granted the contract for the production of marine chronometers to Hamilton. You can check the on line Hamilton serial number list yourself, if you wish. In case you wonder why the delivery date of the earlier serial number came after​ the delivery date of the later serial number, the serial number list shows this very often.
     
  10. artbissell

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    #10 artbissell, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    Re: HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    Movement photo from different computor. IMG_3486a.jpg Also 1941 on movement. Was 1941 first year made? 6459 not a serial number? Total of 27,000 made?
     
  11. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Re: HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    The internal number at Hamilton for the Model 21 is of the format 2Exxxx, and is seen on the inner pillar plate in the attached photo. I believe 1941 is the date of the 1st Navy contract (there were many contracts over the course of the war). And a correction - I also have one marked "Property U.S. Army" that also has the 1941 on the dial.

    And I believe the numbers assigned go up to 2E12300.

    The Model 22 chrono/deck watch used the number format 2FXXX and I believe the numbers assigned go up to 2F28400 ...
     
  12. artbissell

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    #12 artbissell, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    My question came from being told its movement was better finished than later ones that totalled 27,000. But I guess all were well finished

    Different computer loads photo easily. IMG_3486a.jpg IMG_3483a.jpg
     
  13. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Correction - I also have one marked "Property U.S. Army" that also has the 1941 on the dial. And I believe the numbers assigned for the Model 21 go up to 2E12300.

    The Model 22 chrono/deck watch used the number format 2Fxxxx and I believe the numbers assigned go up to 2F28400 ...
     
  14. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    On page 86 of his book The Ship' Chronometer, Marvin Whitney states:

    "Hamilton produced nearly 13,086 ship's chronometers. Number 2E13078 began its pretest March 3, 1970, while number 2E13087 began its pretest May 21, 1970. There is no assembly record for several of the later numbers. However, 2E13087 is the last. Baker Lyman, a New Orleans nautical optician took delivery of these two instruments on December 8, 1970."
     
  15. Dave Chaplain

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    Thanks Doug - it looks like the NAWCC Hamilton factory record online lookup (which is where I found the 2E12300 end number) needs to update their Model 21 end numbering data! :D
     
  16. Jim Haney

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    #16 Jim Haney, Sep 21, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
    Re: HAMILTON 21 chronometer; civilian or military?

    Art,
    I moved your thread to the new Chronometer Forum.

    I don't see any problems with the pic's.

    We have 2 ways to add photo's now, the old way as attachments or the new camera icon on the top bar.

    I just saw that you started 2 posts on the same timepiece. I combined them.
     
  17. artbissell

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    Much confusion here generated by me from computer difficulties and bad past info to me. Thanks to all for the very welcome corrections. artbissell

    IMG_3439a.jpg CASE CLOSED
     
  18. burt

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    Hi Doug,

    Just a small side note on the Baker Lyman Company Inc.. They are still in business (since 1920) although they no longer offer chronometer repair. They were the last to service my Mercer chronometer #16955, in 1985. I have a bit more about them in my up coming article. Don't bother inquiring about their old records as they were lost in the Katrina disaster. I did speak to one of the old timers still working at the firm who knew the chronometer maker. The first question he asked me was my chronometer a Hamilton?

    burt
     
  19. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User

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    Burt,

    Very interesting. Thanks for that! Too bad about the records having been lost.
     
  20. Dave Chaplain

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    I'm familiar with Baker Lyman & Co. Inc. as I'm born and raised in New Orleans, a town where history dies hard. I suppose I should feel fortunate that I was no longer living there when Katrina (aka "the bitch") took 6 homes and all of their possessions from my family members ... I do have the last Chelsea ships bridge clock from the wheelhouse of the S.S. Mayaguez, with white figures on black signed Baker Lyman & Co. Inc., New Orleans. Some of you may recall the "Mayaguez Incident" from May of 1975 when Cambodian Khmer Rouge took the Mayaguez, and on it's recapture the US military lost 15 KIA (11 Marines, 2 Navy and 2 Air Force), 50 WIA and 3 MIA. I was a very young Marine with a very minor support role in that operation, hence my interest in the Mayaguez bridge clock ...
     
  21. burt

    burt Registered User
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    Dave,

    Katrina was a terrible storm and the people of New Orleans and the entire gulf coast paid a heavy price for being in its way. I do remember that situation occurring with the Mayaguez. I believe a documentary was made for TV on the incident.
     

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