H Redard & Sons Geneva

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Lynn, Apr 27, 2008.

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  1. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    hi-Does anyone know that value and year of this watch please?
     
  2. Cary Hurt

    Cary Hurt Super Moderator
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    Lynn,

    We'll be happy to help you try to find out more information about your watch, but we need more than just a name to work with. The name could be the maker, but it could also be the original retailer who sold the watch. And we won't be able to help with a valuation, as the variables involved there are just too far beyond our scope.

    If you can post clear pictures of the movement (the watch mechanism), any marks inside the case, and of the dial, we can probably narrow down a date and place of manufacture. Alternately, a clear description of the movement and all markings might give us a place to start.

    Regards,

    Cary Hurt

    [edit=3476=1209494142]typo correction[/edit]
     
  3. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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  4. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    Hi-Trying to send picture-via cut and paste-pictures forthcoming--thanks! Lynn
     
  5. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    H Redard & Sons Geneva
     

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  6. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    [Here are pictures of the movement. THANKS for any help---Lynn
     

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  7. RON in PA

    RON in PA Registered User
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    Volume 2 of K. Pritchard's "Swiss Timepiece Makers" has a listing for H. Renard et Fils Geneve. Founded 1844 and won a First Prize with others at the 1876 International Chronometer Contest in Geneva.
     
  8. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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  9. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    Thank you much!
     
  10. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    I would rather see a closer view of the movement but from what I can see it looks like you have a very fine item.

    The case looks very good and from its decoration its probably fairly heavy. Some are so thin they are called oil can cases.

    The movement is typical of very high grade items from the Locle area, North of Geneva. It is not jeweld on the center wheel but that came much later for small watcvhes like yours. It has at least one extra cap jewel, which is a sign of a very high grade moement. It may have other high grade features which a closer view woudl show

    Watches of this quality in this size are unusual. It may have more high end features which would make it rare.
     
  11. Nachtmotte

    Nachtmotte Registered User

    Nov 21, 2005
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    Hello together,
    the case with the "Saturn"-bow and the engraved art looks very nice.
    The dial - especially the subsecond - only dirty?
    The movement looks as far as I can identify to a "neuchâteleuse" Le Locle style (Ebauche made of Piguet Frères).
    Age around 1870-80.
    Weight around 80-85 gramms (without the chain).

    My best regards
    Tony
     
  12. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    I agree with Tony about the dating but I think it might be as late as the 1890's.

    We don't do values but the case looks like it has about 1 1/4 Oz of gold in it, more if its a thick case, less if a really thin one. Swiss gold hallmarking was not as relaible as it is today so it may not be fully 18K but you can use this to get an idea of the metal value.
     
  13. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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  14. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    Hi-Thank you. I took a few more closer pictures of the movement. Additionally, it is marked 18k and is indeed very heavy. Thanks for any identification and information. Lynn
     
  15. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    Hi-I have added close-up pictures of the movement to help with ID. THANKS! Lynn
     
  16. Jerry Matthews

    Jerry Matthews Registered User

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    Lynn,

    I certainly agree that this is a very fine watch. Based on size and style, it appears to be a lady's watch.

    The case is stunning. I can't be sure of the hallmark (the small symbol on the inside of the case) but it could be Helvetia (a woman's head) which is the old Swiss hallmark for 18 carat gold.

    Jerry
     
  17. Ben Hsiung

    Ben Hsiung Registered User
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    I'd just like to add to Dr.Jon's comment that this is a high quality timepiece. Another feature I can see that really speaks to its fine craftsmanship is the wolf-teeth winding gears. It's quite rare to see wolf-teeth winding gears from Swiss watches of this era, and especially this size.

    A question for Dr. Jon, you mentioned that this movement layout is from the Locle area, what are the distinguishing features to make this assessment? Also, in comparison, what are the distinguishing features for these later Swiss bar movements coming from other regions of Switzerland, like Geneve, Chaux-Du-Fonds etc.?
     
  18. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    I really like this movement.A bit of geography. The Valle de Joux is a large region. The major city is Neuchatel. From there its a short run North East to Le Locle and Le Chaux de Fonds. Further North is the smaller region called the Erguel where Longiines operated.

    The feature I identify with the Le Locle and Le Chaux de Fonds area is the formation of circle of bridges around the balance wheel. You can see it as an the extension clockwise of the base of the balance cock and the cock supporting the lever. The center bridge is also swept around the balance wheel.

    I have seen a lot of watches from Le Locle that have that. Now I have learned a bit more and am less sure this is native to Le Locle. Neuchatel is a major city. Le Chaux de Fonds is a good sized town and le Locle is a village between them.

    Zantke in his book on Louis Benjamin Audemars calls these Audemars movements. This firm made a lot of rough movements, ebauches. They were in Le Brassus which is South of Neuchatel but still North of Geneva. Its closer to Geneva but to get to the rial line that oes there yuo have to cross ten miles of mild mountain. The rail line in Le Brassus meanders but connect to Neuchatel so its probably a lot easier to get there than Geneva.

    Le Brassus is a very small Village but is home to Audemars Piguet and also had C H Meylan and Louis Benjamin Audemars. This watch is definitely not a Geneva style but whether its from North or South of Neuchatel hard to determine with certainty. I still call them Le Locle movements but It am not hard over on it. I like Tony's ID of "neuchâteleuse" and his attribution to Piguet is as good as any idea as any of mine. I'd like to his response to how he makes his ID now that I have written everything I "know".

    For most of the history of the trade Geneva controlled the sale of finished watches with many coming from various parts of the Valle de Joux. This watch is typical of how things were done then.

    There were a lot of small operations that did everything from making small parts to dials to cases to adjusting. There was a continuum between retailers and major manufacturers. Redard could have contracted the whole item without involving any major manufacturer.

    I'd love to see some closer views of the movement near the balance wheel so I can see the escape wheel and lever. Some makers made some fabulous parts for these. Redard was using the some of the best operators.


    [edit=474=1210943773][/edit]
     
  19. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    To put the Redard movement in perspective, I am posting photos of four similar movements in my collection, all solid gold hunters, three 14k and one 18k.

    The first is a 42mm (outer case diameter) "Henry Cottier." The cuvette states "Patent Lever, Fully Jeweled, Isochronal Spring, Heny Cottier, Locle, No. 24,386."
     

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  20. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    The second is 58mm Salter (which I believe was an Henry Moser brand), with no movement information on the case.
    [edit=3648=1210949727]wrong description[/edit]
     

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  21. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    The third is a 39mm 18k F. Sagne. The cuvette simply states "No. 65,982, F. Sagne, Locle." Note that this watch has wolf teeth winding wheels.
     

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  22. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    The fourth is an unsigned 56mm hunter. The cuvette reads "Remointoir -- Nickel, Balancier Compensee, Spiral Breguet, Ancre Ligne Droit, 17 Rubies, levees Visibles, No 257.597." My French is poor, but I understand this to mean "keyless, nickel movement, with temperature compensated balance wheel, Breguet hairspring, lever escapement, and 17 jewels in chatons."

    I would be interested in comments on any of these.
     

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  23. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    Sagne is another of my favorites. His stuff was always wonderful. I think the term levees Visibles means visible lever and refers to the pallet stones being visible. The alternative was a lever slit the other way, English style in which the stones are not visible.

    I look for the tips of the teeth of the escape wheel to be higher than the rest of it and to have these polished. These are visible on Ethans's first example and may be on the others but I can't see it in the photos.

    Ethan's are larger watches and really fine but finding these on a smaller watch really knocks off my socks.
     
  24. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    See next message.
    [edit=3648=1210955914]Mistaken Posting[/edit]
     
  25. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Here is another fairly similar movement, but keywound. The watch is completely unsigned, approx. 18 size. open-faced, and silver-cased.
     

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  26. Lynn

    Lynn Registered User

    Apr 27, 2008
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    Additional Close-up pictures
     

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  27. A.F.W.

    A.F.W. Registered User

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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Here is an identical movement, unsigned and marked on the case with the name of an American company that imported the watch from Switzerland.
    It is about 10 size.
    -> posts merged by system <-
    I would like to ad my watch to this discussion. The case measures 58 mm across and the movement is signed Aug Piguet.
    It is protected by an exhibition back.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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  28. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Re: H Redard & Sons - Geneva

    Hello. We recently acquired a hunters pocket watch, with the inside back inscription:

    H. Redard & Sons
    Geneva
    14520

    This watch belonged to my wife's great-grandfather, and has been passed down, from generation to generation.

    It has a 18K gold case, with a shield-like mark, inside the front dial cover.

    It has been recently fully-serviced, and runs well, with accuracy within a couple minutes per day

    Can anyone help us identify the approximate year of manufacture? I'll include a few photos, taken with my Droid Incredible, and can post better images, when I can get my hands on a digital camera. Thanks, in advance, for your help!

    Karl Schmitz
    Geneva, Indiana
    USA
     
  29. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Re: H Redard & Sons - Geneva

    Here are 5 photos. -KarlWS

     

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  30. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Re: H Redard & Sons - Geneva

    I've obtained a copy of a recently-completed appraisal from the previous owner, and have gleaned some additional information, below, regarding this hunters pocket watch. Thanks for any help! (I still aim to provided more photos, in the near future.) -KarlWS

    Watch description:
    =================

    Gentleman's pin-set Swiss-made pocket watch, measuring approximately
    44 mm, with pristine porcelain dial, Roman numeral 1-hour indices,
    60-second subsidiary dial marked at 10-minute increments, and a
    (slightly worn) Taille d'epargne enamel tracery hunter-style case,
    in 18K yellow gold (hallmark stamped inside front and back covers);
    fabricated gold @1,305.81 oz. Appears to be an unsigned 15(?)-jewel
    movement.

    S/N: 14520, and 18K (in shield-like emblem) stamped inside hinged
    back cover; 520, and [18]K (in shield-like emblem) stamped inside
    hinged front cover; also, outside of hinged, engraved, and signed
    rear dust cover:

    H. Redard & Sons
    GENEVA
    No. 14520

    14520 stamped inside rear hinged dust cover; plus, apparently
    [not verified; viewed with naked eye], lightly hand-etched
    above the serial number stamping (upside-down): 73922H6; and
    below (upside-down): 72L44HL; plus @8 o'clock (upside-down): 3214.
    [What could the significance of these numbers be?]

    Appears to have been manufactured between 1844-1893.
    [Could someone help us narrow the range?]

    The mechanism had a complete mechanical restoration service
    in May 2010, with hand-made parts, by Universal Watch Repair*,
    through Eichorn Jewelry, Inc. Now runs well and keeps acceptable
    time; accurate within 2-3 minutes, per day.

    Appraisal completed by:

    Eileen R. Eichorn GG
    Graduate Gemologist/Appraiser
    firstingems@netscape.net
    Eichorn Jewelery, Inc.
    130 N. Second Street
    Decatur, IN 46733
    Phone: 800.589.2621, 260.724.2621
    Fax: 260.724.9483
    www.eichornjewelry.com

    *Universal Watch Repair
    177 S. Old Woodward Avenue
    Birmigham, MI 48009
    Phone: 248.723.5550
    Fax: 248.723.5401
    www.universalwatch.net
    info@universalwatch.net
     
  31. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Here are some more, higher-resolution photos of my H. Redard & Sons hunters pocket watch.

    I noticed, that A.F.W's. watch photo, shown just above my original posting, has a nearly identical-looking unsigned movement, and very similar dial face. I see the engraved dust cover back on this particular watch says, "Geneve 1871". It's not a H. Redard timepiece, but would this photo comparison help, at all, to better identify the approximate year my watch was made? I have no idea how often movements/dials of this era were changed. Someone out there, just might. Thanks much, again, for any help you might be able to provide. -KarlWS
     

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  32. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    In answer to post #29 regarding manufacture date between 1843 and 1893, I'd estimate 1875 to 1885.

    I'd guess the same for the other two recently posted/
     
  33. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    #33 KarlWS, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Is it possible, that the hand-etched "73922H6" I discovered on the inside of the rear hinged dust cover, is actually "73922H&", and means September 22, 1873, with H& used as shorthand, of sorts, for H. Redard & Sons? Just a thought. Thanks! -KarlWS
     
  34. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    And, I just found what looks like a hand-etched "1873Y", at 4 o'clock, on the inside of the hinged back cover. Looking more, and more, like that's the production year. -KarlWS
     
  35. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    That won't be a production year, Karl. It may well be the year the watch was repaired or serviced. Those hand-scratches are repairer's marks. The "H6" will mean something only to the repairere, and certainly won't relate to the name of the watch.
     
  36. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Thank, Marty. I 'm just trying to connect some dots. I appreciate the reply. -KarlWS
     
  37. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Anyone know, with reasonable certainty, what the H. stands for? Thanx. -KarlWS
     
  38. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Noone knows with certainty except the repairer who scratched the mark, probably in 1873. He may even be dead by now :rolleyes:
     
  39. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Actually, I was referring to the "H", in H. Redard & Sons. :) -KarlWS
     
  40. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Ah, that does make a difference :) There was a Jacques Henri Redard in Verrieres, Switzerland in the early 18th century. The French are sticklers for repeating family names even in the same generation, so if your H. Redard was related to the man in Verrieres, there's a fair chance that the name was Henri.

    H. Redard & Fils was established in Geneva in 1844, and I suspect this is your maker. You might be able to search the "Companies House" type records in Geneva to find the name of the owner.
     
  41. Audemars

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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Sorry if I am muddying the waters but I have a range of 7**** numbers dated 1873 & 1880, thereafter 1883.
    The later ones were sourced from Calame-Robert in Neuchatel, as far as I can see.
    The earlier ones appear to have been made or at least finished by the successor company Louis Audemars, Geneva (my great-grandfather) - according to Hartmut Zantke.
    P
     
  42. russredard

    russredard New Member

    Apr 18, 2017
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    I know this is an old thread, I hope those involved are still active. I am looking for more information on my families watches. The Redard in question is my Great x2 Grandfather (H is not his first name) and he was a watchmaker in the late 1800's in Switzerland. Mostly I am looking to see where I might look to acquire a H Redard & Sons watch. It would be nice to own a piece of my family's history.
    Thanks,
    Russ
     
  43. KarlWS

    KarlWS Registered User
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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Thank you for your interesting reply. I wish I could suggest a source for an H. Regards & Sons watch. I can see how it would be desirable to acquire a timepiece created by your namesake. Ours has been in my wife's family, since the beginning. I've not seen another quite like it. Good luck on your quest.
     
  44. russredard

    russredard New Member

    Apr 18, 2017
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    Re: H Redard & Sons Geneva

    Thank you. It is a very beautiful watch. I will keep up my search :) - Russ
     
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