Gustav Becker Westminster Service

[Dave T]

I'm trying to talk myself into tearing this one open for a good clean and lube. It looks a little intimidating. I've been looking for some good videos on tearing one of these down. So far, haven't found it.
I just let the springs down. That was really easy on this clock. I think the whole thing might be a pleasure since it appears to have been well built.

You all got any words of wisdom for me before I jump in with both feet?

 

[bruce linde]

take lots of pictures of each little sub-section for reference... and/or make little sketches to help w/ re-assembly.

repeat often (typically under your breath): "it's not a vienna regulator. it's not a vienna regulator.... " etc.

 

[R&A]

The winding mechanisms on these are a bear to rebuild. The pick ups on the chimes can cause problems with stalling out. < remember where all spacers and levers go.

 

[Dave T]

The winding mechanisms on these are a bear to rebuild. The pick ups on the chimes can cause problems with stalling out. < remember where all spacers and levers go.

Could you expand on this for me. I've got the bottom plate off with the winding gears. And I see a couple of gears that have had a hard life, but still seem to mesh well and wind easily. And I see some brass filings accumulating where they have worn against the plate. Looks like the teeth on the brass gear is worn over the side and that then is grinding against the plate. I could file off the sides to regain the flat surface?
There was also a lot of dirty heavy black grease? What's the proper lubricant when re-assembling?

Or, are you talking about cleaning the springs?

 

[R&A]

if it is fine then you won't have to rebuild it.

 

[skinnb1]

Detach the barrels and then you can see the mechanism more clearly. They detach by removing the plate under the clicks, You may have to remove one of the levers to remove the plate. Hopefully the movement can be made to work manually at the moment. The tough part about reassembly is getting the chime side set up correctly and then the strike side. So you need to take careful note of the positions of the wheels with pins as the chime side and the strike side go into warning. However, no matter how carefully you note these down on your first reassembly they won't be quite correct. You then need to spread the plates to move gear wheels into the correct position at which point other gears will move and the air will turn blue. This will probably mean removing levers and trying again more than once. You will need a fair deal of patience, but it will be satisfying in the end. Lubrication of the levers (where there is friction) is as important as lubricating the bushes when you have it running.

 

[Dave T]

Detach the barrels and then you can see the mechanism more clearly. They detach by removing the plate under the clicks, You may have to remove one of the levers to remove the plate. Hopefully the movement can be made to work manually at the moment. The tough part about reassembly is getting the chime side set up correctly and then the strike side. So you need to take careful note of the positions of the wheels with pins as the chime side and the strike side go into warning. However, no matter how carefully you note these down on your first reassembly they won't be quite correct. You then need to spread the plates to move gear wheels into the correct position at which point other gears will move and the air will turn blue. This will probably mean removing levers and trying again more than once. You will need a fair deal of patience, but it will be satisfying in the end. Lubrication of the levers (where there is friction) is as important as lubricating the bushes when you have it running.

Thanks, I've got the lower winding plate removed. That's as far as I've gone so far. I'll clean and lube and re-assemble all that and set it aside. I'm thinking some light grease on this part?

 

[Dave T]

Okay, I've got this clock cleaned, lubricated and re-assembled. It wasn't as intimidating as I thought it might be. But I went very slow, studied it a lot and took a LOT of pictures.
Every thing is working fine, except the chime side. Not sure what to check or how to set it up.

From what I can see the chime warning wheel rotates probably 3/4. Then starts chiming as it should at the quarter hours. But, It keeps chiming several cycles before the stop lever drops. I'm not sure what controls that.
As seen in this picture... the assembly with the little round weight and the two chain links hanging outside.

 

[Dave T]

This pictures shows the chime stop lever in position at stop, in the before teardown picture. I'm not sure what's different now.

 

[shutterbug]

The hard stop you are experiencing is the 3/4 hour auto-synch function. At that point, you should have the chime count wheel at the 3/4 hour position, and the chime barrel set at the 3/4 hour position also (just as the last hammer of the descending four notes falls). The stop for the other 1/4's is elsewhere. I'm not sure where that is on your movement. Another lever, somewhere in the same vicinity as the one you see probably does that.

 

[Dave T]

The hard stop you are experiencing is the 3/4 hour auto-synch function. At that point, you should have the chime count wheel at the 3/4 hour position, and the chime barrel set at the 3/4 hour position also (just as the last hammer of the descending four notes falls). The stop for the other 1/4's is elsewhere. I'm not sure where that is on your movement. Another lever, somewhere in the same vicinity as the one you see probably does that.

Thanks so much. I've been studying this all morning and can find no references about this chime train anywhere. And now I realize it's going to take me a while to understand this one.
I don't know how to explain what it's doing because I can't properly identify all the components.
But, here's some pictures of it. I will most likely have to tear it down to properly align the chime train?
These pictures represent the way it was when I tore it down. So, they should be in the proper orientation. The wheel with the drive gear and the two cams all on the same arbor is what I'm trying to figure out now. The center one has only one notch in it. The outer one has the same size notch and a longer recessed area. I'm thinking the outer one is the stop lever for the strike? And the center one for the chime?
Obviously, I don't have a clue right now!

Here's the front of it.

 

[shutterbug]

That's an odd one. It looks like you have two wheels with notches, so one of them (the bottom one) probably acts as the auto-synch stop, and the other for the other stops. I don't see the levers that interact with them in your pics though. Some how those notches likely cause a lever to encounter a stop pin somewhere. Hopefully someone familiar with that particular movement will be along to give more insight.

 

[Dave T]

One of these days, I'll get smart enough to understand what's going on BEFORE I tear it down! Maybe.
Anyway, here's a picture of the two levers that ride those two cams. They both operate independently of one another on the arbor.

 

[skinnb1]

The rear-most wheel is the auto-correct function so at 45mins the rear lever sits in the slot in the rear wheel. The front wheel has one slot which is elongated, The lever drops into this slot at the end of the hour chime. At the end of the quarter chime the lever is at the end of this long slot. I guess you need to spread the plates to move the gear wheels into the correct positions. The books seems to say that this is easy, but that's not my experience.

 

[Dave T]

The rear-most wheel is the auto-correct function so at 45mins the rear lever sits in the slot in the rear wheel. The front wheel has one slot which is elongated, The lever drops into this slot at the end of the hour chime. At the end of the quarter chime the lever is at the end of this long slot. I guess you need to spread the plates to move the gear wheels into the correct positions. The books seems to say that this is easy, but that's not my experience.

Perfect. Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much. I've been studying this all day!
What book covers this movement?

 

[skinnb1]

When I referred to a book I simply meant the business of spreading the plates and moving some gears whilst others are undisturbed. I happen to have the same movement so I was able to examine it whilst it worked. When I reassembled it I was learning as I went. Good luck.

 

[shutterbug]

It's entirely possible that the wheels are friction fit so one can be moved without having to separate the plates. It's worth looking at. It looks like a pretty critical part to set up right during assembly, and nearly all of the WM chimers I've seen can be adjusted after assembly.
Are those two wheels on the same arbor? They probably are already set in the necessary configuration. In that case, you'll have to look at how the stop is arranged, and how it might be tweaked instead of the wheels.

 

[Dave T]

It's entirely possible that the wheels are friction fit so one can be moved without having to separate the plates. It's worth looking at. It looks like a pretty critical part to set up right during assembly, and nearly all of the WM chimers I've seen can be adjusted after assembly.
Are those two wheels on the same arbor? They probably are already set in the necessary configuration. In that case, you'll have to look at how the stop is arranged, and how it might be tweaked instead of the wheels.

I can answer one question. The two wheels are on the same arbor. I've wondered about moving them, and don't know if that's possible. But, without knowing exactly how this train works, I'm hesitant to change the relationship of them to each other.
And knowing now what I have learned here, I'm going to take it through the cycles before I open it up to change it.
One thing I'm not sure about is how to know when it is at the end of strike at 12. I'm sure this is a dumb question, but can I just assume it's when it finishes striking? Maybe the question is, if it wasn't set up correctly can it strike at another time instead of 12?

 

[gintarasb64]

Hello Dave, My English is not good so I am sorry in advance, I hope you will understand me. I am not professional clock repairer, this is my hobby. I do not know well all definitions of clock parts so sometimes it is difficult to me discuss with the professionals I still remember my GB mantel Westminster clock, for me it was very complicated repairing task and I am very proud I solved it with the help of this forum. The initial problem in my situation was that locking pin was broken. I did all repair works without disassembling movement so it takes a lot of time to understand where the problem is. When I installed locking pin I get pin and left wheel synchronization problem . When I solved it I detected situation which I think you have now. The problem is that there are 2 chiming wheels and they must be synchronized each between other. I clearly remember that I just spread the plates just enough and turned right wheel to position when both wheels became synchronized. I can not say which position it is, I think you will understand after analyzing how both wheel works. If my memory does not fail I think that right wheel is for auto correction function. Maybe I was lucky but I did this last task quick enough - maybe from 3 or 4 attempt. I will gladly to answer all your other questions. Best regards

Gintaras

 

[Dave T]

Hello Dave, My English is not good so I am sorry in advance, I hope you will understand me. I am not professional clock repairer, this is my hobby. I do not know well all definitions of clock parts so sometimes it is difficult to me discuss with the professionals I still remember my GB mantel Westminster clock, for me it was very complicated repairing task and I am very proud I solved it with the help of this forum. The initial problem in my situation was that locking pin was broken. I did all repair works without disassembling movement so it takes a lot of time to understand where the problem is. When I installed locking pin I get pin and left wheel synchronization problem . When I solved it I detected situation which I think you have now. The problem is that there are 2 chiming wheels and they must be synchronized each between other. I clearly remember that I just spread the plates just enough and turned right wheel to position when both wheels became synchronized. I can not say which position it is, I think you will understand after analyzing how both wheel works. If my memory does not fail I think that right wheel is for auto correction function. Maybe I was lucky but I did this last task quick enough - maybe from 3 or 4 attempt. I will gladly to answer all your other questions. Best regards

Gintaras

Gintaras, First off, your English is fine. I haven't yet had a chance to spread the plates and adjust this clock yet, Maybe later today or tomorrow.
Meanwhile, I'm just trying to understand the operation of it as much as possible beforehand. As for the synchronization of the 2 chiming wheels, I still am not sure if they should slip on the arbor. But... the clock was chiming correctly before I tore it down, so I think they should be in proper orientation now, one to the other. Therefore, my approach will be to just turn them all as one complete unit, as previously discussed, by spreading the plates.
As for auto-correct, I don't understand how that works either!
Thank you.

 

[shutterbug]

The auto correct occurs at the 3/4 hour. It's purpose is to hold the chiming train at bay until the hour lift occurs. This is so that if the chime gets off, like chiming the 1/4 hour at the 1/2, it will eventually get to the 3/4 hour at the wrong time. The auto correct will hold it there until the next hour lift occurs.

 

[Dave T]

Well guys, I change the positioning on the chime side. And tried to arrange the wheels according to what I see here. However, this is a very difficult clock to keep all wheels where you want them and get the plate back.

So... all I can really report is what I see now. The only thing that stops the chime is the elongated slot in the front wheel. Consequently the chiming occurs on every quarter hour multiple times until the wheel with the elongated slot make a full revolution.
Then, on the hour the clock strikes the proper hour with no chime.
I'm no farther ahead than I was.

But I think I have determined where the end of strike is. If I could then figure out where the chime train should be at that point I could proceed.

Just a note. The short slots in those two wheels on the same arbor on the chime side never engage or cause the train to stop.

 

[shutterbug]

There has to be a stop pin somewhere, and it's possible that it's broken off. Examine the wheels above the two notched ones carefully and see if you can see where a pin used to be. It now sounds like you have a 3/4 WM movement, so you'd get the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 hour chimes only, followed by strikes only on the hour.

 

[Dave T]

There has to be a stop pin somewhere, and it's possible that it's broken off. Examine the wheels above the two notched ones carefully and see if you can see where a pin used to be. It now sounds like you have a 3/4 WM movement, so you'd get the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 hour chimes only, followed by strikes only on the hour.

Thanks, The stop pins are there, I just think they're not aligned properly. And I don't know what is proper. So, I've been studying this, and the rear wheel, (in the center on the arbor between the drive gear and the front wheel) has a weighted pin that drops in the slot. There's only one short slot on this wheel, just to clarify. But when it drops, the chime won't stop.
So, then the pins on the adjacent wheels which I think have to be synchronized, are right behind the front plate here. \
And then the wheel behind that one has another pin that stops again the lever on the front wheel. Behind here, in the maroon rectangle.

 

[Dave T]

Emailed David LaBounty, He gave me some help. Said it's almost impossible to re-assemble this clock the with the same mesh as before. Therefore, most likely requiring changing the synchronization of the wheels.
With that in mind, now I'm wondering what kind of tool I need or need to make to get in there to rotate it.
As I see it, the clock strikes the hour as it should and, the clock goes into warning and then chime as it should, but won't stop chiming. And I see that occurring with the outer wheel. The middle wheel has to be the maintenance cam. And it does not allow the stop lever to drop to stop the chime. Looks like it needs to be rotated to me to match the notch in it at the end of chime. But I can't figure out how to move it. ( the maintenance cam)
It also strikes the hour as it should. The only thing that's not right is continuous chiming.

 

[skinnb1]

I can't answer your question directly as I didn't need any special tools to get mine chiming correctly. I think you said that the clock chimed OK before disassembly so it seems to me unlikely that the relationship between the two wheels with slots has changed. Assuming they are correct perhaps the best way of approaching this is to move the minute hand to just after 45 minutes. At that point the rear pin should engage in the maintenance cam. The only way of achieving this that I know is to remove what is necessary to allow the plates to be spread and then to disengage the gear wheels to change the relationship between them. There are two wheels with pins. The pin on the lower wheel should hit the end of a lever as the larger pin drops into the slot in the rearmost wheel. I believe both conditions need to be met for the chime to stop. At that point the pin on the warning wheel should be more or less at 12 o'clock. I'm afraid I don't have the correct names for these things. Below are pictures from a working movement showing the positions of the pins after each quarter has struck.

The sequence starts with just after the hour.

 

[Dave T]

So, the 4th picture would be at 12?

 

[skinnb1]

So, the 4th picture would be at 12?

I have added labels to the pictures. These are all after the relevant quarter has chimed.

 

[Dave T]

Great pictures! Thanks.

 

[shutterbug]

Nice, skinn! Helpful people like you are what make this board great!

 

[Dave T]

I got half an update for you. Took the plate clear off. Careful not to change orientation of anything. Advanced the chime/maintenance cam 1/4 turn. Re-assembled.
Went out to mow, had a flat tire, fixed tire, mowed yard. Clock's waiting on me.
Stay tuned!

 

[Dave T]

I've attempted alignment of this chime train again. To my thinking the pins should be set up as show in the picture. Upon final assembly I didn't quite achieve that, but I'm close. Consequently it is still not correct. I'll have to open it up again.
Is my understanding of this right? The picture shows the pins riding the two cams, and the stop pin.

 

[skinnb1]

Looks OK to me. Good luck.

 

[Dave T]

Think I got it! Hallelujah! Took about three more tries, but I figured out how to spread the plates just far enough, without losing all the other pivots. Yep, just compared mine to your 4 quarter hour pictures. I've got the same pattern.
Thanks SkinnB. You're the man!
Still not sure I completely understand this clock or why they did it that way, but hey, it works.
And thanks to all who endured this with me.

And if you don't like that version

 

[Dave T]

Another way to look at this,
yellow 15 minutes
green 30 minutes
red 45 minutes
blue on the hour

 

[gintarasb64]

yeeeh!!! I followed this thriller with big interest, looked for the updates every morning imediatilly after waking up. My poor Englisch did not allowed me to make advices, but still feel very happy I had similiar task somewhen in the past, so I know what complicated it is. regards

Gintaras​

 

[skinnb1]

Good news. You can sleep at night now. Glad to help.

Brian

 

[Dave T]

yeeeh!!! I followed this thriller with big interest, looked for the updates every morning imediatilly after waking up. My poor Englisch did not allowed me to make advices, but still feel very happy I had similiar task somewhen in the past, so I know what complicated it is. regards....
The problem is that there are 2 chiming wheels and they must be synchronized each between other. I clearly remember that I just spread the plates just enough and turned right wheel to position when both wheels became synchronized.
Gintaras​

After reviewing this thread, I see that you posted the obvious answer to the solution too. There was so much going on here, I couldn't remember who said what. But thanks again.

The learning curve on this clock was pretty much like all the others I've tried to figure out. Once you understand what you're doing the solution is pretty simple!