Gustav Becker Two Weight Movement Tips •

Discussion in 'Hints & How-to's' started by Scottie-TX, Jul 20, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    We get quite a few questions about striking movements and striking Viennas in general but there seems to be quite a few about Gustav Beckers. To that end I thought how it could be beneficial if we had a sort of reference or guide for the assembly, disassembly and problem solving for Becker striking movements plus I wanted to know more so I could be more helpful. What better way to learn or teach than to share the experience.
    For that purpose I acquired this GB striking movement.
    I'll go thru it with pictures and will leave gaps for others' counsel, guidance, tips, etc. Now ALL here know I am not an expert on striking movements, Becker, or anything else except perhaps loafing so YOUR comments, hints, and yes - corrections if necessary are VERY welcome and encouraged.
    The first part's for you, JOHN and your archives, comments, etc.
    Do tell Dr. Hub'; What're we looking at here?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    11,291
    23
    38
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Scottie, I'll follow this with interest. What you have is a two-weight time & strike GB clock made at their Freiburg factory in second quarter 1914 based on the serial number. This movement was (or is) installed in an Altdeutsche style Vienna regulator case, has plain brass weights, wood rod pendulum with plain bob that is 64 cm long (P64), and a nice two-piece enamel dial with red decor between the Arabic numbers, a "seconds" bit, and Vienna style hands.

    I don't know the significance of the letter "A" that is stamped below the "P64", still researching that. GB weight and spring-driven "massiv" movements made in this time frame have been found with the letters A, M, P, or S stamped on the back plate either in the position of this one or to the right of the Medaille d'Or stamp. I would think they refer to some German horological term or word but nothing shows up of any consistency. Their Amerikaner design movements also have letter stamps, some of which I've figured out. They include H, K, M, R, and O; the "H" is "Hohltreiben" or lantern pinion, the "R" is "Reschen" for rack strike.
     
  3. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Thankya JOHN. So we're looking at a somewhat later model movement.
    Yeah WILL; Pretty much thata way. Some pix followed by comments, etc. This'll be a sort of fast forward process. I won't address every pivot, tooth, and part.
    Ready? Great. Here goes. The first counsel usually given someone planning disassembly is to take LOTS of pictures so here are just a few of mine - an overall picture, several closeups, some sideshots, etc.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    A few thoughts;
    I believe it may be wise to set the strikeside to the end of a strike cycle before taking pictures. To do this, pull down on strikeside drum and allow striking to complete it's cycle til it comes to rest. This reference will serve you for position of all parts when assembled - expecially the gathering pallet that can be installed in four positions. You can see I did not do this. Note position of detent in starwheel - that it fully engages two star points. It MUST do this. I'll be glad I took that one sideshot later.
    Comments? Additions? Corrections?
     
  5. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Has anybody mentioned that it's set up for a repeat-pull?

    ...That is to say, the snail doesn't advance gradually with the hour wheel. It's located on a star wheel. Near the end of the hour, a cam or pin advances the snail one tooth. The rest of the hour, any time the rack is dropped, it will fall on the current step of the snail and repeat the strike. The cute little handle over to the right can be depressed to trigger the strike. Tie a string to it and let it dangle down into the case. Pull the string to hear the strike repeat.

    The star wheel has a spring-loaded pawl that holds it in position.

    I hope that's not too technical.
     
  6. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Thanks BONG and for that reason and others it is important that the starwheel advances very close to the upcoming hour otherwise on a repeat request it would not repeat the last hour struck. We'll cover this setup in detail in the reassembly portion.
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    It looks like the strike is triggered on the hour and half-hour by pins on the minute wheel, but I'm not exactly clear on how the levers work. A blown up picture would help. On reassembly, I imagine it's important to have the snail-advance coordinated with the minute wheel, so it doesn't advance on the half hour.
     
  8. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    You've already mentioned: Note the orientation of the GP after the strike has completed.

    A question: Which plate do you intend to remove (first)? Front or back?
     
  9. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Well, I believe I always remove the front plate for disassembly if that's what you mean.
    O.K. Let's begin dismantling. I believe it prudent to first remove the anchor/crutch assembly and hammer. Three reasons; 1. The crutch doesn't like the weight of the movement resting on top of it plus, you're putting it's pivots at risk. Second it provides a clean backplate with only the hammer arbor protruding and third, now the timeside can freewheel in case you need to move a part on the front such as the snail that may interfere with the removal of another part. Now you can lay it on it's back to remove parts from the front plate. Let's begin.
    I'll begin with the minute cannon and the intermediate wheel - the one it drives. Note that minute cannon is friction fit to centershaft. Gently twist while pulling upward. Remove cock from intermediate wheel.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Now some tips, notes, suggestions before we proceed.
    Machine screws used in assembly. It is important that all screws should be returned to the holes you found them. That's because often screws look alike and are not. Also screws are sometimes lost and a repairman chooses to re-tap and use an unoriginal one. Whatever system you use, have a system to restore screws to the holes you found them.
    A list. My modus operandi on these. I make notes on removal of parts on the front - a sequence of removal and use that list to return in same order.
    Taper and securing pins. It's up to you. As I removed each pin I taped it to a simple diagram. You may elect to replace a mangled or ratty pin but the diagram serves also to make certain you do install each and every one.
     
  11. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Now a few words about those two wheels we removed.
    The minute cannon - the one with a long shaft and a flat on it. That flat is on both sides. Some will be completely open at the flats. That is provided in case you need to increase resistance fit to centershaft. Too tight and you could ruin the clock's minute hand when setting time. Too loose and minute hand will slip making clock appear to lose time.
    Now notice the single pin. The purpose of that pin is an hourly function. Once every hour it's duty is to advance the starwheel under the snail to the next hour. This should occur near the next hour.
    Now the intermediate wheel - the one with two pins. This one has two functions. Note that one pin is close to the perimeter. One is further away. The one further away lifts the strike lever just a little to strike once on the half hour. The other is closer to the perimeter so it can lift the strike lever higher, release the rack, and prepare to strike the hour.
    From previous:
    Did that clear anything up or are you more interested in the interaction of levers and wheels?
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    There's the cute-little-handle lever with a pivot pin near the edge of the plate. There's the long lever that goes over to lift the rack hook. There's a lever that gets lifted by the minute wheel pin. There's a leaf-shaped lever that rests on the cute-little-handle pivot pin. I can't tell which of them are a part of each other. Is the pivot for the minute-wheel lever attached to the plate? Or just to the levers?
     
  13. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    O.K. BONG; Here's the backplate.
    Now as for your second list of questions - let's be sure I understand the focus or goal of your questions. Are you asking the terminology of these parts? The purpose of these parts? A detailed description of how they behave and contribute? All of these? Is your tutorial on a Grand Sonnerie in the terminology section of repair hints applicable here? I believe it contains all the parts common here to a strike only movement.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Sorry for not making myself clear. A picture will help.

    View attachment 184891
    Does pivot pin A serve just to connect levers together? Or is it attached to the plate? If attached to the plate, and if B and C are parts of the same bit of metal, then it's impossible for the minute wheel pin to lift B, because C is blocked by the pin it's resting on. Please enlighten. (Grand Sonnerie has no similar structure.)
     

    Attached Files:

  15. GregS

    GregS Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Sep 4, 2008
    468
    3
    18
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Bang,

    Levers B and C are indeed one piece. They rotate around pivot A. As the lift pin on the motion works wheel begins to raise lever B, lever C rotates down until it contacts the stop (near your red C ). Pivot A does not go through to the plate. It only connects levers B and C to the Strike Flirt. Once lever C contacts the stop, the pin on the motion works wheel will lift the entire strike flirt, initiating warning and strike. The advantage to levers B and C rotating around A are that the hands can be moved backwards without affecting the strike mechanism.

    HTH.
     
  16. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Got it. All clear.

    Tnx GJ

    Sorry to be so dense. :glasses:
     
  17. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Thanks for that GREG! Great explanation.
    Any further questions before we move on? Anyone want to add further info at this point?
    This is YOUR thread and it shall contain my thoughts plus ANYthing else you'd want here.
     
  18. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    O.K. Front plate clear. Rear plate clear. Take it apart! I like to put a thumb on each pillar post and push down on post while squeezing lift plate. Repeat for other two. Your choice at this point. Feel gutsy? Throw 'em all in a container and proceed to clean. I'm not so gutsy. I like the styrofoam deal. You may have your own system.
    This is also a great time to test the fit of plate to pillars with nothing between. Does plate lower smoothly onto posts or does it stall some places? I think it prudent to remove any burrs from pillars or holes so plates do fit smoothly as a stalling plate can make it very difficult to lower when you're trying to guide pivots to holes. It's also a good recipe for bending pivots when pressing on plate it suddenly overcomes resistance and crashes into a pivot. Now careful here. Remove only burrs, etc. You don't want plate loose or sloppy on pillars. O.K.?
    O.K. Clean it up and return!
     
  19. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    WALES thanks for joining us as we commence assembly. The part you mention, BONG has described in post #7 as;
    So we'll call that a pawl and of course it's purpose is to positively index and hold the snail accurately on the hour.
    O.K. Your movement parts look great - all squeaky clean and spiffy. Let's put them back where we found them. I'll call this step an option but an option I STRONGLY recommend if this is uncharted waters for you. My first assembly was the timeside only. No motion works - NOthing but the wheels and anchor required to display time. I don't need to tell you this is a good procedure because when successful and performing as expected and designed, if at any point in the future remaining assembly it no longer works - you KNOW the problem is not here. If you have a pendulum, hang it. If you don't, a test pendulum is easy to make. Use a bob close to the size and weight of a permanent one. It doesn't need to be pretty but there is one caveat. It MUST be rigid and capable of serving the test. My ugly pendulum has a wearplate that is taped on. I even had to add tape to hold bob when I ran out of threads. Your minute hand can be as simple as my piece or cardstock.
    My test run was about three days, a reasonable test especially if no problems have been encountered. If you have problems at this point, address and solve them now. I found mine with a very healthy swing and plenty of overswing on 1.5 pounds without a pulley. That's same as 3 pounds from a pulley and typical of weight necessary for these.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    So now we're in the final stretch. Remove the crutch of course and install the strikeside parts between the plates. Don't leave out the strike hammer lever like I did. Assembled now, just pull lightly on the strikeside drum. All wheels should spin freely with little effort.
    Now get out your notes, charts, pictures, whatever you chose and replace all the strike parts to their respective places on the front plate. I note two in particular. The gathering pallet - that it is correctly oriented on it's square arbor. My picture shows it's position at the end of a strike cycle and 2. The strike lift lever. Unbelievably I installed it wrong twice. Make certain lift lever is BELOW post when installed so it can be lifted by pin.
    Another suggestion; I did not install ANY taper pins to these parts as that makes it easier to correct errors if a part needs moved to install another, etc.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Now a little side note about that errant hammer lever. Assembly for me went very smooth as wheels seemed to almost seek their holes and plate dropped nicely with smooth motion of wheels when I sat back, pleased, I noticed a leftover part;
    This is when I was glad I took the second picture. I just wasn't absolutely sure exactly how to position it.
    Satisfied I understood placement I commenced assembly again. This time not so smooth. Uh-oh. What's wrong? This time the plates refused to close. I studied the problem area and found it quickly. Make CERTAIN hook on lever arbor is seated between tension spring and seating cushion. Mine was resting on top of the spring.
    Looking GREAT now. This' beginning to be fun!
     

    Attached Files:

  22. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    O.K. Let's wrap it up. All strike parts installed, crutch still off, let's install the motion works. First push minute cannon onto centershaft - anywhere - any position - doesn't matter. Next by setting timeside in motion note that every revolution minute cannon advances starwheel. O.K. this time rotate it again slowly, allowing starwheel to be advanced and soon as it is advanced - STOP movement. Now install intermediate wheel with the two pins such that the HOUR pin is a few degrees in front of the strike flirt lift lever. This placement ensures that the hour will be advanced a few minutes before the hour is struck. We wouldn't want them to occur simultaneously for two reasons. 1. Two simultaneous loads may be excessive and stop the clock and 2. We don't want to risk the advance being incomplete at time of strike.
    Now it may work just fine if not set up this way but I would not guarantee it and you would not want it any other way.
    Install the hands. Simple. Advance to hour and strike. Count the hammer lifts. Three? Install the hour hand to III and the minute hand to XII. Stick the crutch back on and commence final tests of strike and time.
    Questions? Corrections? Additions?
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    Shoulda warned ya; No volunteer; I'll do it. Now BONG I need you to keep me honest - your questions if I miss something - your corrections if something doesn't seem right. You're welcome to photo shop it if you prefer.
    Really not much to it. We'll start with the WARNING phase.
    Warning commences when the pin on the intermediate wheel begins lifting the arm on the strike flirt (middle picture). At that point the rack hook is lifted from the rack. The rack falls onto the snail on hour strike and the gathering pallet rotates a few degrees before being stopped by the warning pin on the fourth wheel. (bottom picture) The pin on the fourth wheel is arrested by an extension of the strike flirt that protrudes thru the small slot in the plate.(top picture)
     

    Attached Files:

  24. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
    Sponsor Donor

    Apr 6, 2004
    938
    12
    0
    Retired
    Mesquite, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Gustav Becker Exercise

    STRIKE:
    Intermediate wheel continues to lift the strike flirt further until it falls off pin of intermediate wheel releasing the warning pin. Strike flirt then drops to rest and striking commences.

    Pins on the second wheel provide for hammer lift.

    Gathering pallet powered by the arbor on the third wheel moves rack one tooth for each strike (progressing toward the butt of the rack, rather than the tip) until strike number is complete. At that point, rack hook now falls into end of rack and gathering pallet is arrested by landing on the pin sticking out from the rack also.

    View attachment 186838


    Nearly as I can see that's about all there is
    Corrections, questions, additions welcome.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Mar 31, 2005
    8,033
    12
    38
    Industry Specialist
    Launceston Tasmania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I hope this thread will be of interest and/or use to anyone who has the pleasure of work on one of these movement. This is an edited version of of thread created by Scottie - TX.
     
  26. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    16,476
    30
    48
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:

Share This Page