Gustav Becker pendulums sign - question

[Adam Mroziuk]

If the P27 is the length of the pendulum in cm. this why such clocks with long pendulum acting with P27 mechanism ??
In this clock should be pendulum P64

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2434/p27a7kk.jpg

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5950/p275ip.jpg
Best regards
Adam

 

[Scottie-TX]

Certainly you considered it and certainly we both doubt it but it's not impossible that escape and third wheels were changed.

 

[Adam Mroziuk]

I have about ten foto with long clock sign P27 on it.

I have to add that P27 sign have only clocks produced in factory Gustav Becker in Braunau - Broumov. No one long clock from Freiburg with P27 on movement. Maybe clocks produced in "Tschechoslovakia" - "Boehm" have the pendulum measured with different units of measure ??
Maybe in Austria-Ungarn is other pendulum units size ??

For what produce clock with striking hours with weights with pendulum 27 cm ?? To little place for falling weight.

Too many maybe
Adam Mroziuk

 

[John Hubby]

Scottie and Adam, I believe (a) that the wheels have NOT been changed, and (b) that the "P" followed by a number actually refers to something other than pendulum length.

As posted on other threads here I've been chasing GB Braunau factory serial numbers, and in recording now nearly 100 of them I'm starting to close in on reasonably accurate dating. Adam's clock is a Braunau (look closely at the GB logo, says "Gustav Becker Freib. i. Schl. Braunau i. Boehm". Most definitely made in the Braunau works, and from my present database sometime in the last half of 1909, perhaps even later.

In building the database for this, I only started recording the "P" series numbers about six months ago and as of now I've got nearly 20 of them. NONE of them correspond to the pendulum length, ALL of the pendulums on these twenty or so clocks are maybe twice as long as the number would indicate, which is exactly what Adam has observed and raised the question. So far, the only numbers recorded within these 20 clocks are P20, P27, P30, and P32, and every single one has pendulums at least 40 cm long, most longer.

What I now "suspect" is that these numbers may stand for the number of teeth on the escape wheel. It certainly isn't beats per minute, e.g. a 30 bpm clock would need a 2 second pendulum that would be "way" too long for the usual Vienna cases, and a 20 bpm even MUCH longer. However, if we have a 30 tooth escape wheel, a seconds pendulum beating 60 bpm would turn the escape exactly 1 time a minute and give a true seconds readout.

Yep . . but most Viennas don't have seconds pendulums, only the very largest ones. They have pendulums that give say 80 bpm. At 80 bpm, a 20 tooth escape wheel will rotate exactly 2 times a minute. So, these clocks don't have seconds hands. However, a lot of GB's and others were built with a "seconds" hand that turns 1 turn in 45 seconds . . so, if we do the calculations you need one of the following combinations:

To produce a 45-second "minute":
>> A 80 bpm pendulum working on a 30 tooth escape wheel, or
>> A 72 bpm pendulum working on a 27 tooth escape wheel

To produce a 60-second minute:
>> A 64 bpm pendulum working on a 32 tooth escape wheel will give exact seconds indication, this would account for a few of the Beckers showing actual seconds without using a seconds pendulum.
>> A 80 beat pendulum working on a 40 tooth escape wheel will give exact seconds. I have a Schlenker & Kienzle that is made this way, but have not seen any Beckers with that high a count on the escape wheel.

Unfortunately I haven't been recording the actual pendulum length on these clocks but will now start to do that. Since I don't physically see most of these clocks it won't be easy to get accurate data as I'll have to depend on the owner's measurements. Also, it will be difficult to get an escape wheel count for the same reason. However, I will be most happy for "everyone" to send me these data along with the other info I usually request, in cluding serial number, which logo (Freiburg or Braunau or GB Anchor), etc.

Amuway . . more research to do here, for sure.

John Hubby

 

[Scottie-TX]

Neat stuff PASSXXX: I'll be looking WITH you. I go thru many GB's here and perhaps I can help you fill in some blanx. Thanks. GOOD stuff!

 

[Travis]

P27 and P64 on Gustav Becker clocks are model numbers of the individual movements and do not refer to pendulum length.

 

[zepernick]

Okay Travis, I'll bite. How does one know that "P27 and P64 on Gustav Becker clocks are model numbers..."? And taking a further chomp, why is it that these P numbers are on some movements but not on others? But definitely on both (some) Freiburg and (some) Braunau-marked movements? And while we're at it, please tell me why the stars do shine and the ivy twines.... <G>. Best, Duck

 

[Bill_NY]

Duck-stars twinkle and who cares why ivy does what it does! :biggrin:

 

[John Hubby]

Travis, model number doesn't work as Doug has questioned. In my database there are clocks with one, two, and three trains all stamped P27, no resemblance at all between the movements.

I've not seen any GB's with P64 . . what kind of clock are they? Do they have serial numbers?

Also to clarify, the only clocks (so far) I have recorded with the "P" numbers are from the Braunau factory.

John Hubby

 

[eskmill]

I've not seen a Becker with P64 stamped on the back plate either but obviously Tom Spitler did.

In Duy Ly's Becker Identification book on page 170, there's a photo of a two train movement SN 1820382 Marked Freiburg - P-64 of Spitler's collection.

 

[lofty]

John, are you only seeking information on becker regulator clocks or any Becker clock. I have 3 GB mantle clocks, two are of the napoleon hat style, while the other has 2 barley twist columns (it has P14 stamped on the back plate). If these clocks are of interest to you, I will post full details. Regards ... Lofty

 

[any400day]

I have a two train weight driven vienna movement with P 64 markings. Serial number is 1555829, Freiburg and Medaille D'or logos. 30 teeth escape wheel with a 64 cm pendulum rod.

Vic

 

[Joe Collins]

I also have a GB marked P 64. I am attaching photos. This is the only GB I have worked on so I don't know a lot about them. The pendulum is 64cm long and the escape wheel has 30 teeth. Perhaps the pictures will help John's research, and John, if you need more pictures I will be glad to provide them.

Joe

View attachment 2250

 

[Joe Collins]

Close up of P 64 and serial number.

View attachment 2251

 

[Joe Collins]

Front view. The part sticking out at an angle on the left side is the hammer spring. I didn't notice it until I posted the picture.

View attachment 2252

 

[Scottie-TX]

Another "P64" Joe - very close to yours by number. Mine is 1392795 - a parts movement has not even an escape wheel and plates badly stained but for what it's worth to the discussion I offer:
View attachment 2253

 

[Joe Collins]

Scottie,
Looks like the P was struck with the same stamp on both clocks. See the missing part of the loop?

Joe