Gustav Becker mantle clock chime problem

[bhannon]

We have followed the assembly procedures in Conover's book: Warning pin (short pin, gear closest to the front plate) is at 11 and the strike warning (long) pin at 7 to 8.
Strike train runs continuously until the chime correction lever pin goes into the locking plate notch (between the end of the hour chime and end of first quarter). The chime sequence is otherwise skipped. What adjustments have we missed or done incorrectly?

 

[shutterbug]

One easy way to set things is to remove the cam for the chime timing and let the train run until it stops. That will be the 3/4 hour hard stop for the auto-sync function. Put the cam back on at the 3/4 position, and test. It should fix you up.

 

[BB767]

I'm helping Bruce with the Becker clock as stated in the 1st post. Assuming we have identified the Warning gear and Strike Warning gears correctly (see photo) shutterbug suggests we remove the cam for the chime timing. How do we do that without taking the clock apart? I believe that cam is a press fit on it's shaft and needs to be synchronized with the cam behind it.

The above photo is another view with the clock assembled. Sutterbug how do we remove that cam timing gear to let the train run as you suggest? Bruce and I are perplexed??

Thank you for your invaluable assistance.

Thomas

 

[Dick Feldman]

You are perplexed?
I am surely confused.
I am not familiar with that particular movement but I do not think you will have chime parts and strike parts in the same wheel train per your first photo.
Are you sure you have two warning pins on two wheels in the same train?
By the way, gears in clocks are called wheels and you have wheels.
It sounds like you both are into that repair well beyond your capabilities.
It is unlikely you will be of any help to each other.
It would be to your benefit to take that to someone well versed in clock repair.
That is how I feel,
Dick

 

[BB767]

Thank you Dick for taking the time to reply. That incorrect language was used to identify parts was an oversight on my part and I sincerly apologize for that. I personally will do my best to try to be more precise going forward and I trust I can count on you and others to correct me when necessary. Please bear with me. That was one reason I posted pictures to help clarify in case I had identified a wheel incorrectly.

I am an unknown, but Bruce Hannon, who started this post, is well known for over 50 years of doing successful clock repairs of all types. I am learning more with each passing year. I feel we are certainly not beyond our capabilities. It was at my suggestion that we reach out to this forum for some clarification and direction as to what one must do to correct a seemingly not uncommon problem with chiming issues on Becker clocks of this type.

The clock in question is a Gustav Becker mantle clock circa 1850. They are quite complex and we have done service work on them before but not related to our present chiming issues. We have communicated with author Steve Conover about this issue with limited success. It was my hope that someone on this forum with specific knowledge of these movements might share some insight with us. As I understand it, one of NAWCC's missions is "to stimulate interest in and preserve knowledge of horological crafts."

I respectfully thank you in advance for any assistance.

Thomas

 

[skinnb1]

I have a similar clock and have worked on it successfully although I am a relative novice. The clock is currently in its case and resting but I have some pictures of it in various states. I think there is some mislabelling in the pictures. There is, or should be, a warning pin on the strike train not on the chime train. From memory the chime train has 2 pins. One for warning and one to stop the chime train. The second picture shows the chime train after 15 minutes past the hour.

My photographs may help but I am afraid don't particularly address your current problem.

 

[JTD]

The clock in question is a Gustav Becker mantle clock circa 1850.

Are you sure about the date - how did you arrive at 1850 for this clock?

JTD

 

[J. A. Olson]

It would not be any earlier than 1909 or thereabouts. VFU/Gustav Becker introduced their first Westminster chime springwind movements between 1906-1909 and went through a few changes in those early years - a complete photo of the movement may help deduce which year it was made.

There isn't much reference to those first generation springwind movements, so here's a catalog clipping from 1912.
The springwind chime movements were used in mantel, wall, and small floor clocks.



If the end of the stop lever is too worn down, it will not stop the warning pin at each quarter hour: resulting in the chimes running on much longer than usual. The lever's end can be amended so it holds the pin when the chimes are supposed to stop. The positioning of the pinned warning wheels must be spot-on for correct synchronization.

I took several photos of a similar movement showing the positioning of stop pins after playing each quarter hour.
They are super quality but also very complex compared to other chime movements.

After 1/4 hour:


After 2/4 hour:


After 3/4 hour, noting both pins are down:


After 4/4 hour:


When the movement goes into warning and drops the rack before the 4/4 hour chime and strike:

 

[shutterbug]

Try my suggestion. You might be surprised.

 

[JTD]

It would not be any earlier than 1909 or thereabouts.

I agree.

JTD

 

[BB767]

Are you sure about the date - how did you arrive at 1850 for this clock?

JTD

JTD if you please, I don't really want to get sidetracked on the age of the clock at this point, that's not germane to our chiming issue. It was through the serial number, which is exceptionally 4 digits low, was what we used. For now, can we stay please stay with trying to resolve the chiming issue. I'd be happy to discuss the age/serial number on another post. Thank you for understanding.

Thomas

 

[JTD]

the age of the clock, that's not germane to our chiming issue.

I think it is, because a movement made in 1850 is considerably different to one made in 1909 or thereabouts.

However, I will not trouble you further on the point.

JTD

 

[tracerjack]

One easy way to set things is to remove the cam for the chime timing and let the train run until it stops. That will be the 3/4 hour hard stop for the auto-sync function. Put the cam back on at the 3/4 position, and test. It should fix you up.

This is the best way on most chimers. But, these Beckers have an internal chime selection plate that is fixed to the arbor. Also, mine doesn't have chime correction, so there is no hard stop. It is all in the timing of the wheels.

 

[Jeff T]

if it has a chime correction lever make the height that it rises has not been changed , sometimes they come loose on the arbor

 

[shutterbug]

This is the best way on most chimers. But, these Beckers have an internal chime selection plate that is fixed to the arbor. Also, mine doesn't have chime correction, so there is no hard stop. It is all in the timing of the wheels.

I'm assuming that this setting has not been messed with. True, that would throw everything out of whack. But if it is set to complete the auto-sync correctly, what I said would still apply wouldn't it?

 

[J. A. Olson]

You can't do a hard-stop with the Becker movements. If you remove the locking lever with two pins, the chime train will run nonstop until it eventually winds down. The locking discs do not come out separately.

Like I said... great quality but also very complex.

 

[shutterbug]

OK. I hope I never see one

 

[J. A. Olson]

Embrace the quality, embrace the complexity.

 

[tracerjack]

For those interested, this GB movement is covered in Conover’s “German Clocks” book, page 8, not the “Chime Clock Repair”. Having read the article through, there is not a lot to go on. I’m still trying to figure out the pin on the Third wheel. Incidentally, Bruce Hannon is mentioned in the article. Very unusual setup with the fixed double wheels for chime selection and chime correction with the third quarter slot on the chime correction cam rather than the chime selection plate. Although it seems not many have experience with this particular model, I firmly believe all chimers work on the same principles. It’s just a matter of identifying how they accomplish those principles. Hope the OP will continue this thread until solved for future reference.

 

[BB767]

I want to thank everyone for their efforts posting in to help us with this movement. We read through Conover's material in his book ( in which Bruce is indeed mentioned ) and have communicated with him a couple of times to gets some clarification. But we still were (and are still) unsure on some points, hence Bruce posting here to tap into a larger talent pool. This movement is indeed challenging but we'll persevere with it until we get resolution. Rest assured we'll post in about our efforts and successful outcome.

Now a word of explanation to JTD if he's still reading here, regarding my comments on the age of this clock which he might find of interest. The reason I felt the age wasn't important was due to the following; We happened to have 2 of these Becker clocks in the shop at the same time, this one and another that were identical movements. The serial number of this clock is well under 4,000 which, according to some information we had, made it one of the earliest of this type. The second Becker had a serial number that was well over 2,000,000, and according to information we had, made that clock one of last of this type. The movements to our eyes were absolutely identical. From that, I concluded the age of this movement in this case didn't matter, since from the beginning of production till the end of production of this movement, they were all the same with no change at all. Now as to when actual production of this movement started I leave that to students of Gustav Becker. Right or wrong, I hope that in some small way, you can see why I didn't want to focus on when it was made.

To JTD, tracerjack, J.A.Olson and others, Bruce and I are grateful to you all for taking the time to post in and assist us in our endeavors. If anyone else has information they feel would be helpful, please join in here.

Thomas

 

[tracerjack]

I’m still in the dark as to which strike warning wheel was referred to when Conover wrote, “The strike warning pin should be set at a 7 to 8 o’clock position.” Did he mean the pinned fifth wheel on the strike side, or the pinned fourth wheel on the chime side. My question for you, concerning your problem of the strike train running until the chime locks, is, “Why doesn’t the locking pallet stop the train when the rack is fully gathered.”

 

[BB767]

tracerjack, that is exactly where we had a question as well. Nowhere in the article does Conover tell which wheel is as he calls it, the "warning pin" wheel set at 11 o'clock and which wheel is the "strike warning pin" wheel set at 7 -8 o'clock. Strike side, chime side no mention of what he's was referring to.That's why I posted the picture and stated what our best guess was. I was hoping someone here would definitively know and be able to either confirm that we guessed correctly or correct us and set us straight. Conover, in the article cautions that getting those 2 wheels sequenced correctly during assembly is critical with the train locked.

As for your question about the locking pallet unable to stop the train, I'd like to defer that for the moment if you don't mind. I will get back to you about it when I have more time to thoroughly discuss it. It's been a long day. Many thanks again.

Thomas

 

[tracerjack]

I see now that there are five wheels (not counting the barrels) in the strike and chime train, so I have edited my post #22. In the previous sentence in Conover’s reference to pinned wheels, he uses the term “warning wheels”. From that term, I would assume the chime fifth wheel and the strike fifth wheel - warning wheels. What does that lower chime fourth wheel pin interact with? My guess is the chime lock lever, but in none of the photos can I see that area clearly. It is an intriguing movement. Still, I’m sure with some methodical sleuthing, it can be put to rights.

 

[skinnb1]

The attached picture (before cleaning!) shows the pin on the strike warning wheel.

 

[tracerjack]

The attached picture (before cleaning!) shows the pin on the strike warning wheel. View attachment 749365

it was the pinned fourth chime wheel I was interested in. Being lower in the train, none of the top view photos revealed what the pin interacted with. In the OP’s photo of the internal placement of the wheels, none of the levers are in place.
You posted this photo where you wrote the stop pin hits the end of the chime lock lever. Is the pin on the fourth or fifth wheel? And, just in case my counting is off, the upper or lower pinned chime wheel?

 

[J. A. Olson]

'Serial Business'

The first Westminster chime movements made in Freiburg are not known to have used a special serial system beyond what had already been factory-established for other movements being produced throughout the 1900's. John Hubby did an extensive study into these serials, however his work is spread throughout several posts on this forum and was not entirely complete.

When VFU/Gustav Becker joined a business interests group with Junghans in 1925/1926, the movement serials were all reset to '1' for each line of clocks being produced at the Freiburg factory at that time. Serials going up throughout the 4000's have been archived, however there is not a complete list of serials for each movement lineup produced between 1926-1932. Many clocks from this timeframe are obscure and difficult to find, given the low production numbers for certain lineups such as the dual chime Wewi Gong and 'Bijou' lanterns with bells.

The more detailed reference that gets posted up of these clocks, the easier they'll be to document for future archives.

 

[skinnb1]

it was the pinned fourth chime wheel I was interested in. Being lower in the train, none of the top view photos revealed what the pin interacted with. In the OP’s photo of the internal placement of the wheels, none of the levers are in place.
You posted this photo where you wrote the stop pin hits the end of the chime lock lever. Is the pin on the fourth or fifth wheel? And, just in case my counting is off, the upper or lower pinned chime wheel?
View attachment 749371

I'm afraid that I can't remember and the clock is in its case. When I put it together I did not have the advantage or otherwise of a reference book so had to work out how the mechanism was designed to operate. The description below may not be 100% accurate but it helped my thinking. My terminology may upset the experts and I know there is some difference between USA and UK vocabulary.

This older post may help.

Gustav Becker Westminster Service

By observing the movement I think it should be possible to figure out which pin is which. The autocorrect function and getting the tune right are the next problems.

Consider the chime at the first quarter. As the canon pinion rotates, its star wheel raises the strike lifting lever which in turn raises the chime lever. As the quarter approaches the chime lever is lifted so that its pin starts to lift clear of the slot in the chime locking wheel. At this point the chime train starts to move. The train is halted by a lever between the plates which is struck by the warning pin on the warning wheel. From memory this lever can be adjusted slightly on this clock. My understanding, which may be wrong but helps me, is that this process is designed to prevent the pin on the chime lever dropping back into the slot in the chime locking lever. As the canon pinion moves on the strike lifting lever drops off the star wheel and the lever between the plates drops and frees the chime warning wheel and the movement continues until pin on the chime lever drops into the next slot and another lever between the plates simultaneously catches a further pin on a gear wheel.