Gustav Becker Exercise

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Scottie-TX, Jul 20, 2013.

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  1. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #1 Scottie-TX, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    We get quite a few questions about striking movements and striking Viennas in general but there seems to be quite a few about Gustav Beckers. To that end I thought how it could be beneficial if we had a sort of reference or guide for the assembly, disassembly and problem solving for Becker striking movements plus I wanted to know more so I could be more helpful. What better way to learn or teach than to share the experience.
    For that purpose I acquired this GB striking movement.
    I'll go thru it with pictures and will leave gaps for others' counsel, guidance, tips, etc. Now ALL here know I am not an expert on striking movements, Becker, or anything else except perhaps loafing so YOUR comments, hints, and yes - corrections if necessary are VERY welcome and encouraged.
    The first part's for you, JOHN and your archives, comments, etc.
    Do tell Dr. Hub'; What're we looking at here?
     

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  2. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Scottie, this is a great idea. However, I only got three photos. Do you plan to add photos gradually, provide a video, or what? I am looking forward to the "rest of the story".

    Will
     
  3. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Scottie, I'll follow this with interest. What you have is a two-weight time & strike GB clock made at their Freiburg factory in second quarter 1914 based on the serial number. This movement was (or is) installed in an Altdeutsche style Vienna regulator case, has plain brass weights, wood rod pendulum with plain bob that is 64 cm long (P64), and a nice two-piece enamel dial with red decor between the Arabic numbers, a "seconds" bit, and Vienna style hands.

    I don't know the significance of the letter "A" that is stamped below the "P64", still researching that. GB weight and spring-driven "massiv" movements made in this time frame have been found with the letters A, M, P, or S stamped on the back plate either in the position of this one or to the right of the Medaille d'Or stamp. I would think they refer to some German horological term or word but nothing shows up of any consistency. Their Amerikaner design movements also have letter stamps, some of which I've figured out. They include H, K, M, R, and O; the "H" is "Hohltreiben" or lantern pinion, the "R" is "Reschen" for rack strike.
     
  4. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Thankya JOHN. So we're looking at a somewhat later model movement.
    Yeah WILL; Pretty much thata way. Some pix followed by comments, etc. This'll be a sort of fast forward process. I won't address every pivot, tooth, and part.
    Ready? Great. Here goes. The first counsel usually given someone planning disassembly is to take LOTS of pictures so here are just a few of mine - an overall picture, several closeups, some sideshots, etc.
     

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  5. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #5 Scottie-TX, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    A few thoughts;
    I believe it may be wise to set the strikeside to the end of a strike cycle before taking pictures. To do this, pull down on strikeside drum and allow striking to complete it's cycle til it comes to rest. This reference will serve you for position of all parts when assembled - expecially the gathering pallet that can be installed in four positions. You can see I did not do this. Note position of detent in starwheel - that it fully engages two star points. It MUST do this. I'll be glad I took that one sideshot later.
    Comments? Additions? Corrections?
     
  6. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    John, I follow many of your posts and marvel at the information you provide on Gustav Becker Serial Numbers. I must admit though, I am now lost on how to date these clocks. Your information on Scottie's movement has it manufactured six or several years earlier than I had thought. Is there anyway us mere mortals can get closer to your dates?
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    #7 bangster, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    Has anybody mentioned that it's set up for a repeat-pull?

    ...That is to say, the snail doesn't advance gradually with the hour wheel. It's located on a star wheel. Near the end of the hour, a cam or pin advances the snail one tooth. The rest of the hour, any time the rack is dropped, it will fall on the current step of the snail and repeat the strike. The cute little handle over to the right can be depressed to trigger the strike. Tie a string to it and let it dangle down into the case. Pull the string to hear the strike repeat.

    The star wheel has a spring-loaded pawl that holds it in position.

    I hope that's not too technical.
     
  8. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Thanks BONG and for that reason and others it is important that the starwheel advances very close to the upcoming hour otherwise on a repeat request it would not repeat the last hour struck. We'll cover this setup in detail in the reassembly portion.
     
  9. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    It looks like the strike is triggered on the hour and half-hour by pins on the minute wheel, but I'm not exactly clear on how the levers work. A blown up picture would help. On reassembly, I imagine it's important to have the snail-advance coordinated with the minute wheel, so it doesn't advance on the half hour.
     
  10. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    . . . . and we'll detail that later too;
    Any further comments about prep before we start dismantling?
     
  11. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    You've already mentioned: Note the orientation of the GP after the strike has completed.

    A question: Which plate do you intend to remove (first)? Front or back?
     
  12. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Well, I believe I always remove the front plate for disassembly if that's what you mean.
    O.K. Let's begin dismantling. I believe it prudent to first remove the anchor/crutch assembly and hammer. Three reasons; 1. The crutch doesn't like the weight of the movement resting on top of it plus, you're putting it's pivots at risk. Second it provides a clean backplate with only the hammer arbor protruding and third, now the timeside can freewheel in case you need to move a part on the front such as the snail that may interfere with the removal of another part. Now you can lay it on it's back to remove parts from the front plate. Let's begin.
    I'll begin with the minute cannon and the intermediate wheel - the one it drives. Note that minute cannon is friction fit to centershaft. Gently twist while pulling upward. Remove cock from intermediate wheel.
     

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  13. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #13 Scottie-TX, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    Now some tips, notes, suggestions before we proceed.
    Machine screws used in assembly. It is important that all screws should be returned to the holes you found them. That's because often screws look alike and are not. Also screws are sometimes lost and a repairman chooses to re-tap and use an unoriginal one. Whatever system you use, have a system to restore screws to the holes you found them.
    A list. My modus operandi on these. I make notes on removal of parts on the front - a sequence of removal and use that list to return in same order.
    Taper and securing pins. It's up to you. As I removed each pin I taped it to a simple diagram. You may elect to replace a mangled or ratty pin but the diagram serves also to make certain you do install each and every one.
     
  14. Scottie-TX

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    #14 Scottie-TX, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    Now a few words about those two wheels we removed.
    The minute cannon - the one with a long shaft and a flat on it. That flat is on both sides. Some will be completely open at the flats. That is provided in case you need to increase resistance fit to centershaft. Too tight and you could ruin the clock's minute hand when setting time. Too loose and minute hand will slip making clock appear to lose time.
    Now notice the single pin. The purpose of that pin is an hourly function. Once every hour it's duty is to advance the starwheel under the snail to the next hour. This should occur near the next hour.
    Now the intermediate wheel - the one with two pins. This one has two functions. Note that one pin is close to the perimeter. One is further away. The one further away lifts the strike lever just a little to strike once on the half hour. The other is closer to the perimeter so it can lift the strike lever higher, release the rack, and prepare to strike the hour.
    From previous:
    Did that clear anything up or are you more interested in the interaction of levers and wheels?
     
  15. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    #15 bangster, Jul 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
    Excuse me, but you haven't shown us a picture of the back side of this movement. Tsk.
     
  16. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    There's the cute-little-handle lever with a pivot pin near the edge of the plate. There's the long lever that goes over to lift the rack hook. There's a lever that gets lifted by the minute wheel pin. There's a leaf-shaped lever that rests on the cute-little-handle pivot pin. I can't tell which of them are a part of each other. Is the pivot for the minute-wheel lever attached to the plate? Or just to the levers?
     
  17. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    O.K. BONG; Here's the backplate.
    Now as for your second list of questions - let's be sure I understand the focus or goal of your questions. Are you asking the terminology of these parts? The purpose of these parts? A detailed description of how they behave and contribute? All of these? Is your tutorial on a Grand Sonnerie in the terminology section of repair hints applicable here? I believe it contains all the parts common here to a strike only movement.
     

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  18. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Sorry for not making myself clear. A picture will help.

    becker.jpg
    Does pivot pin A serve just to connect levers together? Or is it attached to the plate? If attached to the plate, and if B and C are parts of the same bit of metal, then it's impossible for the minute wheel pin to lift B, because C is blocked by the pin it's resting on. Please enlighten. (Grand Sonnerie has no similar structure.)
     

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  19. GregS

    GregS Registered User

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    Bang,

    Levers B and C are indeed one piece. They rotate around pivot A. As the lift pin on the motion works wheel begins to raise lever B, lever C rotates down until it contacts the stop (near your red C ). Pivot A does not go through to the plate. It only connects levers B and C to the Strike Flirt. Once lever C contacts the stop, the pin on the motion works wheel will lift the entire strike flirt, initiating warning and strike. The advantage to levers B and C rotating around A are that the hands can be moved backwards without affecting the strike mechanism.

    HTH.
     
  20. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Got it. All clear.

    Tnx GJ

    Sorry to be so dense. :glasses:
     
  21. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Thanks for that GREG! Great explanation.
    Any further questions before we move on? Anyone want to add further info at this point?
    This is YOUR thread and it shall contain my thoughts plus ANYthing else you'd want here.
     
  22. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Let's proceed. We have the motion works off. What next?
     
  23. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    O.K. Front plate clear. Rear plate clear. Take it apart! I like to put a thumb on each pillar post and push down on post while squeezing lift plate. Repeat for other two. Your choice at this point. Feel gutsy? Throw 'em all in a container and proceed to clean. I'm not so gutsy. I like the styrofoam deal. You may have your own system.
    This is also a great time to test the fit of plate to pillars with nothing between. Does plate lower smoothly onto posts or does it stall some places? I think it prudent to remove any burrs from pillars or holes so plates do fit smoothly as a stalling plate can make it very difficult to lower when you're trying to guide pivots to holes. It's also a good recipe for bending pivots when pressing on plate it suddenly overcomes resistance and crashes into a pivot. Now careful here. Remove only burrs, etc. You don't want plate loose or sloppy on pillars. O.K.?
    O.K. Clean it up and return!
     
  24. Walesey

    Walesey Registered User

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    What a great thread!

    Lots of good tips and advice here Scottie! Where was this thread 6 months ago, before I tore down my RSM regulator movement? I would have avoided some mistakes and made life much easier for myself!

    I know I am entering this discussion late (as usual) but what is the function of the "boot shaped" lever to the right and below the star wheel? The one that is held against the star wheel with the long spring? (I am sorry if I sound silly, but I have only ever seen one other regulator movement close up, and that is mine. It has the snail on the hour canon, and no star wheel.)

    Thanks
    Walesey
     
  25. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #25 Scottie-TX, Jul 22, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
    WALES thanks for joining us as we commence assembly. The part you mention, BONG has described in post #7 as;
    So we'll call that a pawl and of course it's purpose is to positively index and hold the snail accurately on the hour.
    O.K. Your movement parts look great - all squeaky clean and spiffy. Let's put them back where we found them. I'll call this step an option but an option I STRONGLY recommend if this is uncharted waters for you. My first assembly was the timeside only. No motion works - NOthing but the wheels and anchor required to display time. I don't need to tell you this is a good procedure because when successful and performing as expected and designed, if at any point in the future remaining assembly it no longer works - you KNOW the problem is not here. If you have a pendulum, hang it. If you don't, a test pendulum is easy to make. Use a bob close to the size and weight of a permanent one. It doesn't need to be pretty but there is one caveat. It MUST be rigid and capable of serving the test. My ugly pendulum has a wearplate that is taped on. I even had to add tape to hold bob when I ran out of threads. Your minute hand can be as simple as my piece or cardstock.
    My test run was about three days, a reasonable test especially if no problems have been encountered. If you have problems at this point, address and solve them now. I found mine with a very healthy swing and plenty of overswing on 1.5 pounds without a pulley. That's same as 3 pounds from a pulley and typical of weight necessary for these.
     

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  26. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Any questions? Comments? Corrections? Additions?
     
  27. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Well Scottie, I think I have missed the gist of this thread. I had thought it was going to be a step by step process of how to disassemble and reassemble the movement. Now we are on the test stand:???::???: What happened? Or am I just dreaming?
     
  28. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Well you may be dreaming, Peter, but the larger probability is that I didn't make the mission clear enough. Page 1 Post 2 WILL asked a similar question and I replied;
    So; so this is not about the rote processes of cleaning, finishing pivots, oiling, etc. There are MANY topics existing on these. So this guide will assume you can clean the parts, put them in their proper holes, and close the plates on them. This guide is more about the minutae of this particular movement and others similar to it. When someone brings a problem to the board, hopefully they can come back here and either use this for reference or actually identify their problem here.
     
  29. Scottie-TX

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    #29 Scottie-TX, Jul 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2013
    So now we're in the final stretch. Remove the crutch of course and install the strikeside parts between the plates. Don't leave out the strike hammer lever like I did. Assembled now, just pull lightly on the strikeside drum. All wheels should spin freely with little effort.
    Now get out your notes, charts, pictures, whatever you chose and replace all the strike parts to their respective places on the front plate. I note two in particular. The gathering pallet - that it is correctly oriented on it's square arbor. My picture shows it's position at the end of a strike cycle and 2. The strike lift lever. Unbelievably I installed it wrong twice. Make certain lift lever is BELOW post when installed so it can be lifted by pin.
    Another suggestion; I did not install ANY taper pins to these parts as that makes it easier to correct errors if a part needs moved to install another, etc.
     

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  30. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #30 Scottie-TX, Jul 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
    Now a little side note about that errant hammer lever. Assembly for me went very smooth as wheels seemed to almost seek their holes and plate dropped nicely with smooth motion of wheels when I sat back, pleased, I noticed a leftover part;
    This is when I was glad I took the second picture. I just wasn't absolutely sure exactly how to position it.
    Satisfied I understood placement I commenced assembly again. This time not so smooth. Uh-oh. What's wrong? This time the plates refused to close. I studied the problem area and found it quickly. Make CERTAIN hook on lever arbor is seated between tension spring and seating cushion. Mine was resting on top of the spring.
    Looking GREAT now. This' beginning to be fun!
     

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  31. Walesey

    Walesey Registered User

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    Yeah, I think Scottie is on the right track, Pete. This is the sort of thread that I personally will find very useful. I can pull a clock apart and clean it and put all the wheels back in to the correct holes, but getting things lined up the correct way so that it all works as it should is another thing. Even a little detail like running the striking sequence through to the end, before photographing it seems like a pretty obvious thing, but I wish someone had suggested it to me BEFORE I pulled mine apart! :)

    Some good details on how to line up the strike sequence without the photos that I don't have would be useful Scottie! (LOL)
    Cheers
    Walesey
     
  32. Scottie-TX

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    #32 Scottie-TX, Jul 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
    If this is a request forgive my denseness but I don't fully understand what you are requesting.
    . . . and to all others - any additions, corrections, suggestions, questions, etc. before we move toward the end and tie the ribbons on it?
     
  33. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Ok Scottie, but, you did ask for any questions or comments:whistle:. I didn't ask about the rote processes as I KNOW there are MANY topics on those. However, I was thinking the thread was lacking information on how the bits on the outside of the plates interact with those on the inside of the plates. I'm an observational learner. I like pictures. A picture with the front plate off wouldn't hurt.
     
  34. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User

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    This is similar to my GB weight driven. Your comment about the repeat strike piqued my interest. On all my other clocks "pulling the lever" advances the strike, but on my GB it just repeats the strike. Is this the way it is supposed to operate?

     
  35. harold bain

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    Doug, that's the difference between a countwheel and a rack and snail strike.
     
  36. Walesey

    Walesey Registered User

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    OK.
    You have given very good instructions on what we should do before we take the clock apart (and I wish I had had these instructions 6 months ago!) I assume that your re-assembly instructions will assume that the original instructions have been followed. (at least that would be the sensible way to do it. )

    I guess my question/request is, "is it possible to go through the sequence that would need to be followed to get the strike side correctly set up if some silly sod (not mentioning any names for fear of incriminating myself) has blundered in and pulled the clock apart WITHOUT taking the appropriate photos and noting positions of GP's pins, etc?"

    Cheers
    Walesey
     
  37. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Well, Walesey, The "silly sod" should spend a few hours (or days) if necessary studying to make sure he knows what everything on the movement does. If one is fully familiar with German striking clocks, he should be able to take a box full of parts and make a working movement out of it. Knowledge and understanding of function is key.
     
  38. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    O.K. Peter. I think that's an EXCELLENT idea - a sort of synopsis - recap of how everything is orchestrated so that if someone's doesn't then this type of guide would be useful. How about if we call it the proverbial, "ribbons" and GREGORY JOHN did such a great job on Bong's question I know he could do this. See, here's where I just know what's happening. I'm just not good at describing strike operation and terminology. I'll provide that volunteer with ANY pictures they require. My candidate just happened to be a utopian case which in a way because nothing was wrong with it is good but doesn't describe any problem or solution.
    'Course it would be inane to try to describe every possible problem that could be faced.
     
  39. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    O.K. Wales. Thanks for clarification;
    Well WALES the beauty of this system unlike many others is with only one exception, there is no setup. The only setup and I'll cover it next, is proper positioning of the minute cannon and intermediate wheel. Ain't that awsum Wales? You simply put everything where it belongs and it works assuming no part is faulty. Now in the unfortunate event you're handed a box of parts and your challenge is to assemble them - well - that's what this is for. That and if someone has a problem they can be redirected here or pictures here can be moved to the reply box of someone helping that person.
     
  40. Walesey

    Walesey Registered User

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    I fully agree with you Harold, and I am sure the "silly sod" will end up doing just as you have suggested (but probably not this month or next month) I will always look for an easy "short cut" if I can find one, though. But true. There is no substitute for sitting down and studying it until you understand it.

    Cheers
    Silly Sod (aka Walesey)
     
  41. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    HEY! I b'leeve I mentioned that problem early on, when I was trying to understand stuff. The lift lever couldn't be lifted because its other end was resting on the pin. Glad you finally noticed it! :whistle:


    That's the one I'll be watching for. It's crucial to getting the snail advanced right. Need to know how to do it.
     
  42. Scottie-TX

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    #42 Scottie-TX, Jul 24, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
    O.K. Let's wrap it up. All strike parts installed, crutch still off, let's install the motion works. First push minute cannon onto centershaft - anywhere - any position - doesn't matter. Next by setting timeside in motion note that every revolution minute cannon advances starwheel. O.K. this time rotate it again slowly, allowing starwheel to be advanced and soon as it is advanced - STOP movement. Now install intermediate wheel with the two pins such that the HOUR pin is a few degrees in front of the strike flirt lift lever. This placement ensures that the hour will be advanced a few minutes before the hour is struck. We wouldn't want them to occur simultaneously for two reasons. 1. Two simultaneous loads may be excessive and stop the clock and 2. We don't want to risk the advance being incomplete at time of strike.
    Now it may work just fine if not set up this way but I would not guarantee it and you would not want it any other way.
    Install the hands. Simple. Advance to hour and strike. Count the hammer lifts. Three? Install the hour hand to III and the minute hand to XII. Stick the crutch back on and commence final tests of strike and time.
    Questions? Corrections? Additions?
     

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  43. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  44. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User

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    Thanks for the tutorial, it was fun and informative, appreciate it!
     
  45. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    O.K. now I seek a volunteer who can cover Peter's request of a part by part description of a strike cycle from initial lift to end of strike. I will supply any and all pictures requested if any needed.
     
  46. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #46 Scottie-TX, Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
    Shoulda warned ya; No volunteer; I'll do it. Now BONG I need you to keep me honest - your questions if I miss something - your corrections if something doesn't seem right. You're welcome to photo shop it if you prefer.
    Really not much to it. We'll start with the WARNING phase.
    Warning commences when the pin on the intermediate wheel begins lifting the arm on the strike flirt (middle picture). At that point the rack hook is lifted from the rack. The rack falls onto the snail on hour strike and the gathering pallet rotates a few degrees before being stopped by the warning pin on the fourth wheel. (bottom picture) The pin on the fourth wheel is arrested by an extension of the strike flirt that protrudes thru the small slot in the plate.(top picture)
     

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  47. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #47 Scottie-TX, Jul 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2013
    STRIKE:
    Intermediate wheel continues to lift the strike flirt further until it falls off pin of intermediate wheel releasing the warning pin. Strike flirt then drops to rest and striking commences.

    Pins on the second wheel provide for hammer lift.

    Gathering pallet powered by the arbor on the third wheel moves rack one tooth for each strike (progressing toward the butt of the rack, rather than the tip) until strike number is complete. At that point, rack hook now falls into end of rack and gathering pallet is arrested by landing on the pin sticking out from the rack also.

    Becker detail.jpg


    Nearly as I can see that's about all there is
    Corrections, questions, additions welcome.
     
  48. Walesey

    Walesey Registered User

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    This is good Scottie!

    When I get home from work this evening, I suspect that about 5:50pm will see me holding my lap top up against the movement of my clock watching your description happen in real time on my clock!.

    Mine is not a GB but a RSM. I only have a few photos here which do not show everything I want to see, but I think that on my clock, 2nd wheel has 12 pins to lift the strike hammer (Can't really see the pins in the photo that I have, so I might be wrong), the 3rd wheel drives the GP and the 4th wheel has the warning pin and also drives the fly. Does that sound about right? You have your GP on the second wheel rather than the third, but I don't suppose that make any real difference.

    Do I need to be careful about where the strike lifting pins are relative to the warning pin or relative to my GP? I guess I would not want my GP to arrest while the strike pin was half way through a strike, for example.

    Somebody told me that the Warning wheel (did they mean the 4th wheel with the warning pin?) should make half a revolution on Warning. I never quite understood what they meant by that, but figured it was something to do with setting up of the pins relative to each other. Any ideas?

    Cheers
    Walesey
     
  49. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Well thanks WALES for noticing another necessary correction.
    Gathering pallet IS on 3rd wheel. My bad.
    Now as for your other two questions WALES I have somewhat the same question I'd like to pass on to the braintrust here for addition and clarification. Yes, my pin is about 180 degs from flirt bar at rest. So 180 degs. is a half revolution and I've had no problem with hanging hammer.
    So another question to the braintrust here is,
     
  50. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #50 Scottie-TX, Jul 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2013
    O.K. Guess there is no further questions, corrections, comments or even any further interest in this.
    So I enjoyed this exercise VERY much and hope others can perhaps find something here useful when they are either curious about this process and are wondering if they're capable of completing it or are having problems with one like it.
     

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