Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movements

Discussion in 'Wrist Watches' started by MikeBarnett, Sep 9, 2017.

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  1. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

    Nov 26, 2008
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    I've created a "map" of Gruen movements as a "front end" to a larger database of Gruen movement information. The map is organized first by size, then by "Family" of movements. A family is movements that have a common "base" movement. That can be a movement caliber like the 425 or a broader family like Cartouche.

    I think it speaks for itself. Maybe you'll have some similar "aha" kinds of insights into how Gruen numbered the movements, or the linage of your particular favorite Gruen movement.

    Each "Square" is with information on the movement. It took a lot of effort to collect this data. I just ask that it's treated with respect and not repurposed.

    Here's one sample square for the Caliber 426 movement.
    315607.jpg


    • The first thing to notice is the color of the outline. In this case, it's black.... that means it's a "normal" quality level. There are two other choices
    • Precision (and Extra Precision). These movements have RED colored lines forming the box
    • Guild. These movements have GREEN colors lines forming the box
    • The date shown is the initial start of manufacturing date for this movement (Hats off to Bazzab, amazing researcher, for this data)
    • Number of jewels. If this 405 had "Adjustments", that information would be printed near the jewels count. The adjustment information is the number of positional adjustments and temperature if either was indicated on the movements
    • The size is shown to the left of the movement image. Measurements shown in Lignes and Millimeters.
    • The movement's Base movement or "Parent" movement. This is used to find the correct spare parts for the movement.
    • Gruen movement Thumbprint[SUP]TM[/SUP] is in the bottom right corner.


    The Thumbprint
    is a new way to match your movement with the correct one on the map. Here's the 426's Thumbprint along with the movement.

    315608.jpg


    The "typical" fingerprint, like that found in Bestfit, consists of a some specific portions of the keyless works, parts that are not visible with the dial on the watch. Who wants to remove hands and the dial to ID a movement??

    So, I used parts that ARE visible when the dial and hands are firmly attached.

    All Thumbprints are read with the movement's stem facing right.
    The Thumbprint uses the layout of
    • Ratchet Wheel - blue
    • Crown Wheel - purple
    • Balance Wheel - red

    The movement's shape is shown in black
    Finally, the Train Bridge is shown in yellow with locations of holes, jewels, screws shown punched out. The train bridge alone makes a sort of Thumbprint of it's own once you've seen a few.

    It's highly experimental, so say the least.


    Some of the movements have been wired up to go right to the online details for the movement. The details page include more uniquely Gruen information not found in material catalogs like the Style Number usage over time. These movements have "hotspots" that take to the details:
    440
    430
    431
    435
    311


    There is most certainly missing information, errors, mislabeled stuff.... etc... if you spot something that you can help with, and that includes movement pictures, SPEAK UP! I can't do projects like these entirely alone or in a vacuum. I know I'm going to need some serious help when the round movements are mapped. In this map you'll find some movements were copied and used as placeholders. There may be a 17 jewel version shown for both the 15 and 17 jewel watch just as a placeholder. Typically I used the Gruen supplied movement images from the Material Catalogs when I did not have modern photo of the movement or I duplicated the base movement.

    If you do submit a photo, please make you took the picture or have permission to use it in this way. I very much want to complete the map, but with legal images :)


    You'll find the online movement information from this Gruen Movement Catalog page and the Experimental Online Gruen Movement Map page.

    Unfortunately, despite my best efforts, I was unable to upload the PDF as an attachment. You'll instead have to download the PDF using this link:

    Gruen Movement Map Download


    This is a screenshot of the entire map:
    315609.jpg

    Enjoy! (Thank you to everyone that's tossed in a little something on this one)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. MINI

    MINI Registered User

    Sep 26, 2012
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Well done!! :clap:
     
  3. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

    Oct 18, 2001
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    A fantastic effort! I have a lot of odd Gruens I have wondered about and look forward to seeing if any would help expand your survey. Well done!-Cort
     
  4. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Dec 28, 2010
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    That's a great idea, awesomely executed. Many thanks for your efforts.
     
  5. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

    Nov 26, 2008
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Thanks much for the encouragement!

    This is one of those documents that is going to take a bit more work to complete it. I've got over 1/2 of the movements left to do, and those will likely be the most difficult to find and figure out because the round movements span a much longer and older timeline.

    I reworked the chart to fit on a single, wide screen.

    You can download this WIDE-SCREEN version using this link:
    Download Gruen Movement Map ver 3.14 Wide Screen

    Here is a thumbnail of that map:
    315669.jpg


    I was able to almost fit all of the lady's movements on the top line and the men's on the bottom. There were clearly a magnitude more number of lady's movements than men's. I'm guessing Gruen's sales figures would have supported this emphasis on women's watches despite the fact that the inverse is now true. The market for vintage lady's watches is inverted from what it used to be.


    I am actively looking for movements that are not well-represented in the PDF, so if you see one you own, please let me know. I'm not at all shy about giving people credit! Check out the Gruen Movement Catalog page to see a list of the ebay and private individuals that have been of great help in this process. It can't hurt to say THANK YOU, so here's another one (THANK YOU!!!) for the list of folks that have pitched in. If you've provided movement info and are not listed, by all means let me know so you can be properly recognized :)

    Enjoy!
     

    Attached Files:

  6. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    I keep forgetting to mention:

    These PDFs are fully searchable, so press Control+F or Control+Shift+F to search for the movement number or measurement you're looking for.
     
  7. jshopper1

    jshopper1 Registered User
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    Feb 24, 2009
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Mike,

    Superb job, a lot of work and us Gruen guys appreciate it.

    But...My old tired color blind eyes cannot see the difference between your blue and purple wheels. If I may speak for approximately 8% of the male population that suffers from some sort of color vision deficiency, can you choose two colors that are more dissimilar please? If it is too much work to change all of your illustrations then don't worry about it.

    Again, thanks for all your work for the Gruen community.

    Dennis Lockwood
     
  8. MINI

    MINI Registered User

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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Is it only 8% Dennis? I always thought there were more of us with that problem...
     
  9. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

    Nov 26, 2008
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    I'll fix it.

    I thought the design passed the color-blind tests as I stayed away from the red-green problem. I didn't realize there would be a problem between purple/blue.

    In the short-term, you can use the SIZE of the circles to guide you. The Crown Wheel will pretty much ALWAYS be the smallest of the 3 circles. It'll also be right-most wheel (probably) because the watch is oriented with stem-right.

    It'll take a while to process all of the Thumbprints so give me a bit of time.
     
  10. MINI

    MINI Registered User

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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Blue/purple and red/brown for me. And not that I'm trying to give you more work to do but..... it would be over-the-top nice if you managed to bring in the case numbers that were generally used with those movements and then (wait for it)..... link in the known model names for those case numbers. :excited:

    ps.... when you have a few spare minutes of course. :chuckling:
     
  11. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

    Nov 26, 2008
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Can't say your requests are unreasonable.....but.....

    When the "details" pages are completed you'll be able to see some of these details that you're asking for such as Style Numbers used. The way I'm presenting Style Number usage is not the raw numbers but rather those number graphed over time. I think that is a better way of presenting Style Number data.

    Here's an example for the 440 movement:
    315893.jpg


    The raw Style Numbers for the 440 can be found on the page with the Style Number article. The table at the end of the article has the style numbers and calibers.

    This is the list of Style Numbers the 440 used:
    448
    449
    450
    498
    499
    541
    544
    556
    568
    574
    575
    576
    577
    578
    584
    585
    641
    707
    753
    797




    What I did to create this graph is map these style numbers to dates, then I summed up the number of Style Numbers for each of the dates and graphed that as a bar graph.

    You can already see these bar graphs on the page showing Gruen's Use of Movements Over Time. On that lengthy graph spanning 24 pages, the graphs show the dates above the bars. The purpose of the graph is gain an understanding of the USE of movements over time, so the shape of the curve and the location of the bars relative to dates.

    I am currently adding a graphical indicator for date.
    315894.jpg


    The orange bar at the top represents the years 1920-1950. They're meant to be read not as absolute values but rather a relative comparison between movements so you can clearly see which movements were introduced "early" and which were later. If you want to see more details, then you would go off to a "Details" page where you can get the style number graph, parts interchangeability information, etc.

    I'm keeping model names out of this project. The focus is on the movements rather than the specific models that used the movements.

    Gruen Caliber Numbering

    I had hoped that seeing the calibers laid out in this fashion, sorted first by size, but then also grouped with child-movements, would lead to a breakthrough in understanding the numbering scheme Gruen used.

    I'm able to see some of the numbering methods:
    • adding a "7" to the end of 3-digit caliber indicated a 17 jewel version (8357,1617,1067, 1077,1597) . Or adding a 1 indicated the 21 jewel version (3351) . But this number was not stamped on the movements. The movement was stamped only with the 3 digit number. Great examples of this are the 106/1067, 107/1077. It indicates going UP in jewel count.
    • Incrementing by 1, 2, ..., is how a "class" of movements can be made. By class I mean the major difference is the number of jewels or perhaps non-Precision. Examples 840, 841, 106, 107. But, not ALL movements that are sequential are related. The 105 and 106 are not related.

    What I was NOT able to accomplish is understanding the Caliber as a whole. Is it possible to look at a Caliber Number and decode the size of the movement from it? Or the date it was introduced? Or jewel counts?

    I find it unfathomable that something as fundamental as the caliber number was not well thought-through. These guys thought through everything else, so why wouldn't they standardize the numbering scheme:???:?

    What makes a 210 a 210?

    I'm willing to pay someone for a logic-filled answer :)

    What was Gruen's magic formula for determining Caliber Numbers?


    You would think in the big re-organization they would have addressed this numbering scheme.

    I have these variables displayed visually on the map in an attempt to help us answer this question:
    • Quality level (standard, Guild, Precision, Extra Precision) - Indicated in text plus the box's outline color (red = Precision, black = normal, green = Guild)
    • Date of Introduction - now a bar graph + text
    • Size
    • Number of Jewels
    • Adjustments (number of positions and temperature)
    • Family (Veri-Thin, Curvex, etc).
    • Base Caliber - Movements are grouped with related movements

    The only physical trait of the movement that I don't have shown is whether or not the movement has a subseconds and thickness. I'm not aware of thickness playing a role in the numbering, but perhaps maybe the thickness is exactly what determines the Base Caliber. I doubt it, but at this point I've got no answers to this Caliber Numbering question.

    I'll have the version of the map with the Introduction Date graphical element added later today or tomorrow.

    Isn't there some neural net I can run this data through and have the computer figure out the variables that go into making up a Caliber Number. There's no way they were randomly assigned.

    Maybe the round movements will help:???: If so, there's another HUGE map that's needed. I can't imagine a combined graph at this point, but maybe :)
     

    Attached Files:

  12. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

    Nov 26, 2008
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Another day, another version of the Gruen Movement Wall Chart :)

    You can get the latest here -> Gruen Movement Catalog - Rectangular Movement Map Version 3.3

    This addition was the "Year of Introduction" bar located at the top of the movement information box. The bar spans from 1920 to 1950.

    Here's a portion of the chart with the bar added

    315908.jpg


    Maybe it'll help us in figuring this mess out.... maybe not.

    Thanks for the feedback so far. It's going to take some time to deal with the color-blind f-up on the Thumbprints. That requires going back into a couple hundred files and modifying them, then dropping them back into this map, etc.

    Enjoy!
     

    Attached Files:

  13. MINI

    MINI Registered User

    Sep 26, 2012
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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    What else can i say but... :clap:
     
  14. MikeBarnett

    MikeBarnett Registered User

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    Re: Gruen Movement Catalog - Movement Map....a new angle to view Gruen watch movement

    Why thank you for the clapping!!

    Nothing like a little encouragement to keep things moving.

    I'm now taking an interesting approach to this Caliber Numbering riddle.... What exactly were the components used to create the Caliber Number for the movement?

    I've tried looking at this puzzle using this Map and by looking through the values in my databases, but I cannot figure out much of anything in terms of how the base calibers were "Computed".

    Enter....
    MACHINE LEARNING


    I am now throwing this problem to the computer, to Artificial Intelligence. Perhaps some algorithms can crack this riddle.

    I promise to not make a war-starting AI-bot that gets loose on the internet. :)

    "Supervised" learning is needed so that I can see the results along the way. It allows me to peek under the hood and see how the machine is doing what it's doing.
    It doesn't do me a lot of good to have the computer be able to re-produce the numbers based on the movement's characteristics and not educate me as to how it does it! That would kinda suck.... the computer would be an expert at understanding Caliber Numbers and the best I could do is feed in values and marvel at the answers.

    This one is going to take some time. I'm good at Data Mining, but not Data Mining using machine learning and the MANY algorithms that come along with that field.

    Hopefully I'll have some really cool stuff to report.

    I'm using a "workbench" to get this project going called "Weka". You read more about it here: http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~ml/weka/

    I'm sure that as I learn about the AI and the specific use in this case I'll post trees or whatever helps tells the story of how the computer is able to figure out the Caliber numbers scheme, or perhaps how it was unable to figure it out. It's gotta be smarter than me at this point :) So already I'm ahead by going in this direction.

    Maybe one of you can crack this code?? All of the data is poured onto that map.
    The only missing data points that I've been able to identify are:
    • Movement thickness
    • Subsecond or No Subsecond
    • Hairspring type
    • Specific ebauche maker (for Guild movements, who exactly made them)
    • Made in-house or out of house.... For Guild-era movements, that data is already incorporated into the Map. The "Quality" is shown as "Guild" and the box has a green line

    I don't think any of these went into the Caliber Number.

    I do think that when the shake-up of 1935 happened, they must have examined the serial numbers, even if they made no changes. I suspect that they DID make changes to the definition of Caliber Number. To test this, I'll be dividing movements into "Pre-1935" and "Post-1935"

    Now I just need to go learn enough about AI, machine and "Deep" learning, to put together models that can be run against this data. Back soon-ish!
     

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