Grandfather clock globe/map

Danny Fisher

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Is it possible to date a grandfather clock (or at least its movement) based on the maps above the dial? Would the lack of correct geography suggest a certain date? Thank you!

05_faceShip.jpg LeftGlobe.jpg RightGlobe.jpg
 

new2clocks

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Would the lack of correct geography suggest a certain date?
The incorrect maps on your clock would have been the maps that were produced from the late 1400s to early 1500s, when the 'new world' was discovered. Your clock is a 20th century clock.

Can you provide a picture of the back of the movement? We may be able to let you know when the clock was made.

Regards.
 
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Danny Fisher

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The incorrect maps on your clock would have been the maps that were produced from the late 1400s to early 1500s, when the 'new world' was discovered. Your clock is a 20th century clock.

Can you provide a picture of the back of the movement? We may be able to let you know when the clock was made.

Regards.
Thank you new2clocks. I appreciate your info. Here's my thread from last year and pics of my clock (https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/help-in-identification.181393/). My question about the maps was based on new documentation I found from the previous owner who said a Sotheby's appraiser and a second appraiser in Northern Cal dated the "clock" (I think they meant the case?) to pre/early 1800. The previous owner also mentioned something about the maps being incorrect and therefore contributing to a late 18th century date.

Kruse.jpg
 
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new2clocks

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The previous owner also mentioned something about the maps being incorrect and therefore contributing to a late 18th century date.
It is safe to say that the previous owner was incorrect with his / her opinion of the date of the dial and movement.

new documentation I found from the previous owner who said a Sotheby's appraiser and a second appraiser in Northern Cal dated the "clock" (I think they meant the case) to pre/early 1800.
As JTD stated in the thread that you linked to " The gothic style of the case would be suited to the date of around 1900-10", which is corroborated with the vintage of the movement. It is safe to say the Northern California appraiser was incorrect in his assessment.

the previous owner who said a Sotheby's appraiser
Is there any documentation from Sotheby?

Regards.
 
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Danny Fisher

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It is safe to say that the previous owner was incorrect with his / her opinion of the date of the dial and movement.



As JTD stated in the thread that you linked to " The gothic style of the case would be suited to the date of around 1900-10", which is corroborated with the vintage of the movement. It is safe to say the Northern California appraiser was incorrect in his assessment.



Is there any documentation from Sotheby?

Regards.
Thank you. No documentation from Sotheby's, other than a reference to their Beverly Hills office dating it to "1750-90." And an affidavit signed by the previous owner stating the clock's provenance through the Civil War.
 

zedric

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Unless the owner was referring to the Spanish civil war, then I’m afraid that they were either mistaken or trying to deceive. Everything about the clock looks very much later, and I also agree with JTD’s proposed dates
 
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zedric

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Mercator’s atlas is a good example of how much was, and wasn’t known about the globe in the late 1500s. See for example File:Atlas Cosmographicae (Mercator) 033.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

But clockmakers were never trying to be cartographers, so the globes on clocks are almost always artistic representations, not intended for accuracy but to frame the moon dial
 

Bernhard J.

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It is often amazing to what results some "professional experts" (in particular appraisers of auction houses) come in dating. They just seem to rely on whatever the owner/seller tells, without any own expertise. Only recently I experienced this by occasion of two buys. A watch dated more than half a century too early, a clock dated one century too late. Both really clear cases, wherein no dispute is possible.

Of course there are many persons with real knowledge. For the amateur without own extensive knowledge it is difficult to decide who might be more trusted. If I had to choose, I would always rather rely on information presented in this forum by users, than on "official" appraiser´s opinions.

The two appraisers mentioned in this thread are really funny. By the way, I have maps showing the earth millions of years ago. They were, hoewever, not drawn by dinosaurs (I am sure about that).
 

Danny Fisher

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Thanks, all, for the comments. It's an interesting situation to me: an NAWCC member with his own antique clock shop in the late '80s sees the grandfather clock in person and attributes it one way, while other NAWCC members today see online photos and attribute it another way. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, I just find the disparity interesting. Maybe the increased knowledge through contemporary internet searches outweighs a professional seeing the clock in person? I don't know. I'm not selling the clock, so in the end, its appraisal price is irrelevant to me. I just find its history fascinating. Thank you all again for your comments. I do appreciate it.
 

new2clocks

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It's an interesting situation to me: an NAWCC member with his own antique clock shop in the late '80s sees the grandfather clock in person and attributes it one way, while other NAWCC members today see online photos and attribute it another way.
One issue that has not been addressed is the fact that the scholarship in horology has increased greatly since 1989. Just in the past 15 to 20 years what was considered to be fact has been disproven based on recent findings of source documents that were not in the public's knowledge thirty years ago. A good example of this is your movement. It was unknown thirty years ago but not any longer.

Recent scholarship has debunked publications, including well-respected publications, that were available in 1990. For the German clock industry, the gold standard is the Lexikon, by Hans-Heinrich Schmid. Unfortunately, it is only published in German, so auction houses, even the well-respected auction houses, attribute clocks and their vintage to what was in published works prior to the publication of the Lexikon. Why? Because those debunked publications were written in English and the auction houses have something at which to point.

Also, information that was available in 1990 was not properly understood as it is today.

And with respect to "an NAWCC member with his own antique clock", ownership of antique clock shop is irrelevant, and a person could join the NAWCC tomorrow, receive an NAWCC member number, but this does not make them a horologist, :)

Regards.
 

novicetimekeeper

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Thank you. No documentation from Sotheby's, other than a reference to their Beverly Hills office dating it to "1750-90." And an affidavit signed by the previous owner stating the clock's provenance through the Civil War.
Though I think the standards of premier auction house appraisal of clocks has been going downhill I do not believe anybody at Sothebys ever dated this clock to the second half of the 18th Century.
 
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