Grandfather Clock Case - Crown Dial

[CTMusicStraps]

Hello
I recently acquired a grandfather clock (case only) with the intention of finding a used movement, dial, pendulum, weights, etc. and I know that will be a challenge)

I picked it up last night. This case is around 85” to the top of finial. The entire bonnet and waist are both removable from each other and the base without tools so that the case dismantled in 3 sections which made it easy to transport home in my SUV.

Case could use some TLC and it needs a little repair to a small piece of moulding. It appears to have been refinished at some point as it looks like very shiny poly was applied. I might try fine scotchbrite to even the surface but beyond that I would not want to damage the stain. I’ve heard that mineral spirits are safe. I used that along with a little white vinegar and cream of tarter once on an antique shellac finish mantel clock and it worked well.

As for the make or time period all I have to go on is the dial face and damaged pendulum the Seller had saved. The movement has been long gone and no one knows what happened.

As the pictures show, the dial shows CROWN with an R trademark and of course it’s Tempus Fugit leads me to believe it was a cheaper line. The dial states 31 day, and since there are only 2 arbor holes it probably was only a Time and Strike. There are only holes inside case to accommodate 2 chains or cables.

I am open to replacing the movement with what my case will accommodate in a Time, Strike, and Chime (3 arbor system) and am looking for matches of moon phase dials & movements of either Kieninger or Hermle.

As for the Crown name I can’t find anything of that online at least where the logos match. I do however see new replacement CROWN dials with operational moon phase on Ebay with the same trademark mine has.

So my main questions are:
How can I determine the finish (poly, varnish, shellac, etc) used on this case.
what time period and where were these Crown Clocks made?

So far I haven’t found any maker’s mark onthe case. Also if it helps, the materials of this case are solid wood for carvings and turned posts, cabinet grade plywood for other main case front and sides, some composite pieces, or veneers, and very thin plywood for back of case.

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

Your clock is probably Korean or Japanese. I would think you may want to consider your clock case a blank slate. I would carefully measure your dial opening and consider finding an entire clock kit with dial, movement, weights and pendulum. You could also try Merritts. They have a lot of orphan movements and you could work with them to find a suitable older style unit. You will, undoubtedly, be doing some retrofitting to make your clock operable again.

 

[CTMusicStraps]

Thanks Thomas. After chatting with Clockworks a bit, we concluded Korean/Japanese were known for making ornate cases with the cheaper movements.

They also recommended what you said, basically replace the entire works and dial. I also learned in taking measurements the base to mount the seat board was father down from the handshaft location (estimated by holding the original dial and frame board in place) than the entire height of most German movements. So that requires me to raise the new unit up quite a bit - maybe using more of a seat platform than a board on the inside. That’s actually good because I have lots of room in the top, while the vertical space in the waist seems challenging.

After some more measurements it looks like I can fit a Kieninger K series triple chime 93 cm, and those are over $800 new, so I found a clean looking Original Kieninger 83 K stamped 93 cm cable drive with pulleys for around $50 plus shipping on Ebay. I realize I will have to mate it with the appropriate correct moon phase dial and pendulum. Then once I do the necessary inside modification to install that, I will later find weights and chime rods.

I agree with you it’s a clean slate and since each section is designed to lift off, I view it as “custom” with no maker mark anywhere on case. While I think all the works will fit in space, I mainly will focus on getting as close to original fit with dial-to-movement-to opening and work my way down from there. If I really need too there is a way to add a wooden spacer frame to gain a few inches height clearance for pendulum on the inside without it being noticed.

My main interest in sprucing up my case is to determine what type of final clear sealer was used (poly, varnish, shellac, etc), but I’m leaning towards varnish or poly. I intend to leave as is with some basic cleaning or touch up- just don’t want to damage existing areas. I’m quite Ok with the coloring- even though it varies. There is a loose piece of trim and also a small piece on one side missing, but it’s a small simple wood square with beveled edges- looks easy to duplicate by hand.

I don’t mind doing a little restro since it’s not an Antique nor is the entire clock original since the movement was long gone when I acquired it. I only wanted the info on the “Crown Brand” shown on old dial to try to affix a era of manufacturing. Right now I’m guessing 1970’s

Thanks for the tip on Merrits. I had just thought of checking with them too right before reading your reply.
CT

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

You're welcome! It seems you are thinking of more than one option. I would explore each before deciding on a choice. Once you have it in house, you own it.

 

[CTMusicStraps]

You're welcome! It seems you are thinking of more than one option. I would explore each before deciding on a choice. Once you have it in house, you own it.

I am not thinking of any other options. I don’t have the $ right now to buy the entire kit new, so I’m buying each part used.

I already ordered the used Kieninger K series (83 K 93 cm) unit that will most likely need serviced since it’s old and I got it tor $50. I will then look for a used dial with moon phase that matches my K 83 and then later order a pendulum either new or used made the correct length for a 93 cm.

The movement I bought will need a suspension spring but it already included the pendulum leader, cables and pulleys for the 3 weights which I will buy soon after. Lastly I will look for a Chime rod set made for the 12 hammers my Kieninger has.

So everything inside the case will be Kieninger set for the K series at 93 cm pendulum outfit.

I will not be reusing the old 31 day 2 arbor dial or the old short pendulum.

 

[shutterbug]

Dial and movement matching is always a challenge, but the suggestion to replace both might be even harder. You have to have the movement sitting on the seat board, but still align with the dial holes. With Korean 31 day movements, I always encourage winding only enough for an 8 day run, and then winding once a week. They are dangerous contraptions fully wound.
BTW, the current dial is for a time and strike movement. They have several on Ebay, and after finding one you may still have a repair bill.

 

[CTMusicStraps]

Dial and movement matching is always a challenge, but the suggestion to replace both might be even harder. You have to have the movement sitting on the seat board, but still align with the dial holes. With Korean 31 day movements, I always encourage winding only enough for an 8 day run, and then winding once a week. They are dangerous contraptions fully wound.
BTW, the current dial is for a time and strike movement. They have several on Ebay, and after finding one you may still have a repair bill.

Hey Shutterbug,
Thanks for the tip, but if you check my last reply in this thread, you’ll see where I bought a Kieninger 83 K 93 cm Triple Chime unit, used and it will need some servicing because of age if nothing else.
In the beginning I didn’t connect the dots of the 31 day being a Korean or Asian movement, so after combing the net for info on Crown brand clocks, and finding nothing, I ditched the idea of finding a 31 day. Besides I like a Chiming clock better.

I know it will be a challenge, but I’ve seen a few moon dials online made to fit a Kieninger KSU (which is the newer version of K series) but they’re quite pricey especially getting one that also includes the seconds hand hole and dial inset.

I went ahead and ordered the K series Kieninger because it was $50 as opposed to the $800+ for a new one.
My old dial (31 day) height and width and distance to handshaft is around the same as the KSU dials so that will work with my case opening and I can build up the seat board to align the movement handshaft as needed.

After Thomas suggested the former movement which was not with my empty case was probably Korean or Japanese, I looked up Korean and Japanese Crown movement and found some online.

i also remember reading of the dangers you spoke of concerning 31 day clocks and I had a 31 day Korean wall clock given to me once that I eventually regifted. I remember winding that thing lots of times and feeling it get tighter and tighter.

In summary my plan is to keep the case as much original as possible, while having the inside clockworks all Kieninger with everything matched to an 83 K 93 cm which will include a new or slightly used dial, weights, chime rods, and pendulum.

For testing purposes I have the old shorter pendulum, so I could buy a cheap neck to extend the length or temporarily make something until I had all components fitted and tested. Then I could order the correct size. Most pendulums I’ve seen and read of, the cm length on German movements after 1950 is taken from the top pin where suspension connects. A 93 cm pendulum measures 35” and when you add the pendulum leader to that it should work out to the actual cm distance.

CT

 

[shutterbug]

Keep us updated

 

[CTMusicStraps]

Keep us updated

OK for Shutterbug and any interested, here’s a quick update on this Grandfather clock project.

My original plan was to use a K series Kieninger 93cm and match everything to it inside (dial, pendulum, weights, etc); however when I received the used Kieninger movement, the Seller had not packaged it well, so it banged around in the box it knocked some things off and bent the handshaft, and possibly other adjoining gears.

About the same time I received the damaged Kieninger, another Seller Ive worked with who sold me good clocks in the past had a comparable Hermle 461-853BS 94cm complete with moon phase dial still attached he got from an estate. We worked out a deal on that, so I opened a return on Ebay and was able to get a complete return, $ refunded including my shipping from the Kieninger Seller.

So now I’m compiling parts for the Hermle setup. I have acquired Chime rods, weight inserts, and plan to get a Lyre pendulum with the 6.5” bob due to my limitations on case width.

After checking more into the GF case I realized the bonnet has lots of room, and so does the base cabinet, but the waist is running a little short (it was built for the previous Asian movement that was smaller and only a T & S (2) arbor), but with some woodworking skills which I have, I can craft an extension to grow a little overall height plus there is a little more room by lowering the floor which is attached to the waist.

I haven’t started all that yet - but will wait until I have all matching Hermle Clockworks in hand. I’m getting most of these parts used, but I followed the specs and info for what I need to make the 461-853 work. The 461 series is essentially the same movement as the 1161 except the 461 is Westminster only vs the triple chime 1161. I currently have 2 other triple chime Hermle clocks in my house and most of the time they stay on Westminster, so I am fine with the 8 hammer / rod Westminster setup. The BS movement also has the seconds hand feature as well.

No more actual work done to case or Clock right now -just compiling parts as I spot good deals.

For those new to this thread, here is not only the full case assembled but showing it in 3 sections since it was designed to break down that way w/o tools.

My guess this case built in either Korea or Japan in the 1980’s. It was missing the movement from the beginning- only had a plain Tempus Fugit dial and short pendulum which I will not reuse.

Fortunately the Hermle Moon dial set up matches the size and space in the case. Since it’s not an antique and was not a complete clock only an empty case, I’m treating this as a custom case retrofitted for upgrades. My goal is to maintain most of the outside cabinet as it was, but the inside will be completely Hermle and Hermle compatible parts for the 94cm system.

Here are the pics and will keep you posted.
CT