golf score counter pocket watch repair question (Leonidas)

Aloha

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Hello,
I have a bit of an unusual pocket watch type piece. It is a mechanical golf score counter made for Hermes by Leonidas in 1941. I waited years for this to come up and finally got one for very cheap. This is my first repair attempt of a watch or something of this nature. I realize it would be best to take it to someone but I cannot afford to do so and I am being careful to document where everything goes and to not mar up the screws. I have access to an ultrasonic cleaner and have the correct oils and greases. My goal is to simply dissasemble it and clean it in the ultrasonic cleaner and reassemble as it was kind of rough when selecting your hole number. If this doesn't work, then it will have to wait until I can afford to service it which is likely several years. Please note the piece is missing a 2nd hand on the front for those familiar with this model, the missing hand is supposed to point to the hole number you are playing on. The current hand counts the x10 intervals for your total score. The disassembly was going well but a I reached a part that I do not know how to remove. There appears to be a sort of pin holding the disk down.. I made a short video that shows the disk. If someone knows the term for this type pin and how they are removed please let me know.


Thanks,
Craig
Honolulu, Hawaii

s-l1600-6.jpg s-l1600-7.jpg
 

Skutt50

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Welcome to the forum.....

I have never seen or heard of such a "watch" before. Looks very special.........

The front bezel looks like a bezel on ordinary pocket watches and is probably just pressed on. I would use a watchmakers knife to prey the bezel loose, starting in the opening you show in your video. Take note that they can be on there quite hard.....

As for the other question, the only suggestion I have is to try it in different positions. I assume the wheel is turning, so there might be a position in which it comes out easily.....
 
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Aloha

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Welcome to the forum.....

I have never seen or heard of such a "watch" before. Looks very special.........

The front bezel looks like a bezel on ordinary pocket watches and is probably just pressed on. I would use a watchmakers knife to prey the bezel loose, starting in the opening you show in your video. Take note that they can be on there quite hard.....

As for the other question, the only suggestion I have is to try it in different positions. I assume the wheel is turning, so there might be a position in which it comes out easily.....
Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking that might be the case with it needing to be in a certain position. If you look very closely you can kind of possibly see the edge of a slit under the gear near the pin. That gear only moves back and forth a few radians (less than 5mm), unless it requires a significant amount of force to move it beyond that spot but I'm not ready yet to try to force the gear beyond that short travel distance. I'm wondering if that pin isn't soldered in place as it looks a little weird if you look closely like it might have been. The question is guess is if it needs to be unsoldered in place or if there is some opening that allows it come out dependent on the gears location.
 

gmorse

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Hi Craig,

I think you may have to remove the mechanism from the case. It looks as though it should come out from the back, and that the screws marked in red, which I see from the video you've already removed, are holding it in place. It's worth trying to remove the front bezel first though, because the dial is secured by the two screws at the edge and you should be able to remove that after carefully lifting off the hands. That should reveal whether it does in fact come out through the back of the case. If it does, it may be just a matter of carefully prising up all the way round now that those screws are out.

s-l1600-7_edit.jpg

Regards,

Graham
 
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Skutt50

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The question is guess is if it needs to be unsoldered in place
I find that less likely. If you compare with watches I have never heard of such solution.....It would be very inpractical to use a soldering iron both during manufacturing and during any repair.
 
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Aloha

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Thank you all for the help. With your suggestions I was able to get it disassembled. It turns out it had to be aligned in just the right position to be removed. I ended up loosing a single very tiny screw that was holding a tiny spring clip in. The spring when it was released launched the screw and hours later I was still unable to locate it. This was the very last screw I had to remove too so I thought I was almost done and then disaster! I obviously know how to match up hardware screws in the hardware store but these are very tiny screws. Is there a standard size/pitch that would be used in a pocket watch during the 1940s in Switzerland? Is there a source were I could buy an assortment of screws to find one that would work without breaking the bank. Any other suggestions on doing this. I don't plan on working on other watches in the future but money was tight and I had wanted one of these for the last 10 years.
 

Skutt50

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Congratulations......

A magnet inside a plastic bag is a great tool to search for lost magnetic parts.......
Another trick is to use a vacum cleaner with a ladies stocking over the nossile.

I don't know about screw pitches in detail. A place to find small screws is to strip some movements. If you have some junk movements laying around, there might be something that will do the job.
 
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Aloha

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Hi Tups, I am going to keep this for myself. If you don't want the Hermes branding which is incredibly rare the Leonidas branded ones sell for ~300 occasionally maybe every 3 years if you search obsessively on all the auction sites including the regulars like ebay but also live auctioneers and the other antique auctions. There is also a cheaper feeling but easier to read one by Gofskor. I have a gofskor one that I partially disassembled and gave up after 3 minutes if you are interested. The gofskor one has a much nicer central total score counter but overall it is not as luxurious as the leonidas because the case is lighter and less thick. I paid 150usd for the gofskor one in as is condition with it jammed up. I believe all the parts are there but it need to be worked on. I spent no time working on it because the hermes one I had been looking for for 10 years came up finally from a seller in Spain. Its very unlikely you will find one again under 1700usd for the hermes ones. I'm an expert at antique auction searches and had hundreds of search notifications set and it took me 10 years to find another one. That one on ebay is actually a fair price and I considered buying it. If you are interested in the gofskor one I could sell it to you for what I paid (150usd) but your going to need to get it repaired as its partially disassembled and was jammed when I got it. It does appear to be all there though.
 
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tups

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Thanks a lot for your reply and the offer of the Gofskor, Aloha. I have considered it as well, but it would be a bit mad to send a half disassembled one halfway around the globe in the hope that I can get it reassembled and working.
In a surprising turn of events, I have found myself one of the Leonidas ones today - they also do occur as "Minerva". I wish you good luck and much enjoyment of your Hermes golf scorer! Cris
 

tups

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So my example arrived in the mean time, but now I am wondering how it is supposed to be held into the case. If I shake the case, the movement is loose inside, and this interferes with the pushing of the button, especially for the lower dials, because the whole movement has just enough movement for preventing the succesful clicking over of the dial. There are five screws around the edge which hold the wire for the reset cams in place ... but were there any screws holding the movement into the case that I am missing ?
There is a slit opposite the pushbutton that looks like it could accommodate a wedge, and there is a tiny hole next to the pushbutton that could have a pin that can then maybe be blocked by a screw on the inside ?
If you can let me know which screw it is you lost I can try and measure it for you.
 

Skutt50

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Cris, Graham has in post #4 of this thread indicated what might be the screws holding the movement in the case.
 

tups

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Tak, Skutt, but those screws do not hold the mechanism into the case. They are 3 of the 5 screws that hold the wire "axle" for the reset cams in place, and have no other function.
I can actually see a steel pin in Aloha's picture that comes down through the hole next to the stem for the operating button - I would be interested to find out how that is held in place.
 

Skutt50

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That looks like a stem and crown in an ordinary watch.

Normally there would be a screw next to the stem that would operate a lever which in turn holds the stem in place.
Here I don't see such screw however there is a screw at the bottom of the stem (at 9 o'clock in the picture). That might be the one to loosen or even remove..... This would be the solution found on some pin lever pocket watches (even if those screws are usually found close to the rim of the plate).
I want to remember that I worked on an American watch a long time ago with a very special solution. I had to remove the inner support for the stem in order to get it out. (I think I started a thread here at NAWCC at the time, but I can't find it right now.) In the unlikely event this is the solution here it would mean that you remove the screw and the piece it seems to hold.
Often on simpler watches (e.g. Doller watches) one can sometimes find a clip that is holding the stem. It is inserted 90 degrees towards the stem typically very close to the case. I don't see this clip in the picture but it just might be hidden behind the front bezel. (Have you removed the front bezel?)

You might need to remove the front bezel anyway since the "movement" just might come out through the front.
 

Skutt50

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My memory was not 100%......

This is the thread I was refering to in my previous posting:

The stem was screwed into a piece inside the watch and to unscrew the stem one had to lock that piece through the top plate with a pin. Probably not what you are up against with this movement........
 

tups

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Right ... so the issue is not to get the mechanism out of the case, it is that it is loose in there, and I think some screws or a clamp are missing. This is what I am staring at with the back off:
leonidas1.jpg
The screw circled in red is what holds the stem in. I'm wondering whether any of the three holes slghtly to the right of that on this picture have anything to do with clamping the mechanism in place ...
This is the back with the actuator taken off (not necessary for removing from the case):
IMG_20210319_180656.jpg
The front of the machine, minus the dial and hands, and out of the case:
leonidas2.jpg

So how do you clamp this to the case without it rattling around in there ?

Thanks,
Cris
 

Skutt50

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My guess is that there are three screws missing which are circeled in the picture in Grahams post number 4. It would make sense if those screws are what is holding the movement in the case.
 

tups

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No, those are three of the five screws that hold the reset cam "axle" in place ... I took those out too (you can see the five holes around the perimeter in my picture) but they have nothing to do with holding the mechanism into the case.
 

Skutt50

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OK then my last guess is the two screws at 3 and 9 o'clock visable from the front and accessable from the front through two rim openings in the casing.
 

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