Gold Repousse Case - Are these solid gold?

[pocket2100]

I have yet to jump into the gold cases for the European market - mostly because I personally appreciate silver more, but I would like to begin considering a few.

I know there are many tricks to imply that something has more gold than it actually does. I have several American gold-filled or gold-plated watches that have very little gold compared to a solid gold case.

When looking at gold repousse cases, and other style gold cases, from the 18th and 19th centuries, what are the things to look out for? Was it common to do gold plating or gold filled on watch cases from the mid 1700's?

Thank you for any advice you are able to share with me on this.
Adam

 

[pocket2100]

Are you saying most of these early gold cases likely used leaf or fire gilding rather than solid gold?

 

[aucaj]

Usually, it is very easy to tell due to surface wear on the repousse cases; especially if it hasn't been cleaned in awhile. The high points of the outer cases get worn down and the repousse scene becomes less distinct. Most of what I see is silver and gilded brass. Gold ones are rare. And gold repousse cases without enough wear to definitively know their content are extremely rare. I assume you are asking about one of these. This is normally because the watch had an outer third case.

Focus on the inner case back where it rubs on the outer case and especially the bow. These are common wear areas. If the inner case is gilded brass, chances are the outer case is as well.

v/r,
Chris

 

[pocket2100]

Are there any assey marks that would indicate a solid gold content?

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Are there any essay marks that would indicate solid gold content?

Hi, Pocket2100, Try these two. They will save you from buying a book.

Best wishes,

Allan.

Marks in watch cases - hallmarks, sponsor's marks, etc.

Marks found in watch cases such as hallmarks, sponsor's mark, date letter, assay office mark

www.vintagewatchstraps.com

Examples of British hallmarks in watch cases

Examples of British Hallmarks found in watch cases such as hallmarks, maker's mark, sponsor's mark, date letter, assay office mark

www.vintagewatchstraps.com

 

[pocket2100]

Thanks for the links. I think I just need to be a bit more clear on my general question here...

If a gold watch has a London date code and hallmarks, does that imply it is real gold "plated", or is it "solid" gold through and through? As everyone and every article I read seems to avoid pairing the word "solid" with "gold", it makes me wonder if a gold watch with proper hallmarks can be considered solid gold or not.

 

[Dr. Jon]

The hallmarking is still tricky because the sterling and gold marks were the same until the 19th century when they were changed to prevent this kind of confusion.

 

[pocket2100]

The hallmarking is still tricky because the sterling and gold marks were the same until the 19th century when they were changed to prevent this kind of confusion.

Thanks Jon - is it safe to assume all English gold watches are likely not solid from the 18th century, even if they do have hallmarks?

 

[John Pavlik]

Its a bit more complicated than that.. Your best bet is To study the English hallmarking history to get a better grasp of what would be solid gold or silver..
The more knowledge the better decisions... assuming is not an appropriate course to take on this subject.. There are many solid gold English and Swiss watches out there..

 

[John Matthews]

is it safe to assume all English gold watches are likely not solid from the 18th century, even if they do have hallmarks?

No! As John has just posted you need to do the research. Purchase 'Bradbury's Book Book of Hallmarks' from here.

Here are the relevant pages to answer the question ....


For a genuine set of hallmarks to be present the metallic content of the body of the watch case must be silver or gold. Many repoussé outer cases were not hallmarked or if they are it may be difficult to find the marks - so that is not helpful. The table lists the various markings and the purity in the different periods.

If there is a genuine set of hallmarks present in the period when silver and gold were marked in the same manner (1544-1843), for 'gold cases' there are two possibilities - solid gold or silver gilt. In the latter case careful examination, on all but the finest gilt in pristine condition, you will probably be able to find a place where the surface gilt finish has worn and the underlying silver can be seen.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi Adam,

The English hallmarking system tested the content of the underlying metal if the object was plated, so that meant silver hallmarks if it was silver. Gilt brass would not be hallmarked, although it sometimes has a maker's mark.

In the specific circumstance of a gold repoussé case, these are only rarely hallmarked even though usually solid, because the marks would disfigure the outer surface and there's little room on the inside, apart from the fact that the punches would probably show through as well. This is the outside and inside of a 1740s gold repoussé case, which isn't hallmarked but because of its date, is 22 carat, (see the date of reintroduction of 18 carat in John's extract from Bradbury's above). Work of this very high quality was more often carried out in gold because of its very good ductility. The inner surface shows how these pieces were made, by punching out the details from the inside.



Although unsigned, the artist who created this masterpiece is known to be Peter Dupont from its similarity with other well-documented pieces, and verified by Richard Edgcumbe, Curator of Metalwork in the V&A and author of the definitive study, 'The Art of the Gold Chaser in 18th Century London', (now out of print and rather expensive). The quality of the work is on a par with Ishmael Parbury or George Michael Moser, but for some reason Dupont didn't sign it; believe me, I looked for a signature extremely closely when I had the privilege of restoring it!

Regards,

Graham

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I would think one could determine the specific gravity of the repousse case to determine whether it is silver or gold. The value is 17.5 for 22K but would vary with the presence of steel or other metals in the joints. For sterling silver the value is 10.1. For 18K gold it is 15.6.

All of the values are subject to slight variation when done on a kitchen table.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I think it is very accurate for 22K gold vs silver or even 18K gold vs silver.

All you need to do is measure the weight of the item in air and when submerged in water. The source of measurement error is usually overlooking captured air in the submerged item.

The first time I ever did this was in 1950 in a general science class. (It was not a 22K repousse watch case.)

 

[pocket2100]

Thank you for the help everyone. As with American watches there's no clear way to be 100% certain, but there are things to look for. Sounds like the European watches were very similar.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I think a conductivity test might show the difference.

 

[pocket2100]

The challenge is always determining the gold content before the purchase. I don't think the seller will appreciate it when I bring a tub of water and want to submerge their watch before I buy it.

 

[Dr. Jon]

YOU can probably get a decent estimate with a plastic caliper and a scale. The metal is about the same thickness so if you measure it and estaimte the surface area you can fair idea of the volume. Gold is a lot more dense than silver so a density estimate should give a clue but a conductivity test may do better.

 

[Incroyable]

There's an easy but very expensive way to determine gold content: an XRF gun.

Portable XRF Analyzer & Price List

See many used XRF Analyzer Models and their prices. Here I list the price of a Portable XRF Analyzer (AKA handheld XRF spectrometer) depends on functionality and Brand. Used models can save you as much as 70% over new ones. REVIEW XRF TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS BY BRAND...

www.911metallurgist.com

 

[Tom McIntyre]

The challenge is always determining the gold content before the purchase. I don't think the seller will appreciate it when I bring a tub of water and want to submerge their watch before I buy it.

If you want to know what it is when you see it, you will need to develop the skill to judge the weight in your hand. I am pretty sure the people who do this for a living are better than 80% accurate unless they are dealing with a watch with modifications designed to deceive.

It is trickier if the movement cannot be taken from the case and with 18th and early 19th century watches where the movement weight is not accurately known. If you need better than +/- 10% accuracy to do the deal, you should probably walk away.

 

[pocket2100]

All very good advice, thank you. As with most things, will have to build up the experience.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Adam,

In the example I've used, the very quality of the workmanship when in hand was sufficient! The watch is quite small, the top plate is only 30 mm in diameter.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

The challenge is always determining the gold content before the purchase.

The challenge is different if you are a collector rather more than an investor.

For a collector, my view is that it is a matter of considering a purchase from a holistic perspective and to determine whether the price of an item is what you are prepared to pay to add the item to your collection. I pay more attention to the overall quality of the workmanship of all the components of a watch and generally pay little attention to the composition, and therefore scrap value, of the case(s) alone. There are many examples of watches that have movements of relatively low quality that are to be found in 18K cases and there are many watches with movements of the highest quality that were originally housed in well made silver cases.

Look past the scrap value of the case, that's my advice.

John