Mechanical WW Girard Perregaux 39 Jewel Gyromatic Hand Winding Issue

[Paul Raposo]

I've never handled a GP 39 jewel Gyromatic before and picked one up the other day.

All the functions on the watch work correctly, except for the hand winding.

When I remove the rotor and automatic gearing, the hand winding works.

When I install the automatic gearing, the hand winding works.

When I install the rotor the hand winding stops working.

It feels like it's binding and the crown won't turn.

I've included pics of the various parts hoping that someone here can help me with this.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

I've never handled a GP 39 jewel Gyromatic before and picked one up the other day.

All the functions on the watch work correctly, except for the hand winding.

When I remove the rotor and automatic gearing, the hand winding works.

When I install the automatic gearing, the hand winding works.

When I install the rotor the hand winding stops working.

It feels like it's binding and the crown won't turn.

I've included pics of the various parts hoping that someone here can help me with this.

View attachment 539318 View attachment 539319 View attachment 539320 View attachment 539321 View attachment 539322 View attachment 539323 View attachment 539324 View attachment 539325 View attachment 539326 View attachment 539327

Paul
While I do not normally work this sort of movement nor have I that I recall, lets take a shot at it since no one has replied yet.

Assuming all is properly assembled with no visible broken teeth or parts, I would check the two large clutch wheels that are engaged by the rotor easily observed in photos #4 and 5. Each wheel should be two wheels assembled as a clutch. You should be able to hold one wheel of the assembly and rotate the other one way or another. If one of these assemblies is locked up, you would not be able to manually wind the watch.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Paul Raposo]

You should be able to hold one wheel of the assembly and rotate the other one way or another. If one of these assemblies is locked up, you would not be able to manually wind the watch.Jerry Kieffer

Thank you for your thoughts and advice Jerry.

I actually tried that this morning when I removed the assembly--moving each wheel in both directions and they do move freely. As each wheel moves, it moves the other wheel. I did not try to move them while they were on installed on the movement.

However, with the auto wind assembly off the movement and rotor attached, the wheels will turn in one direction but not the other.

Or did you mean to try and move the wheels while they are installed on the movement?

While looking online, I found this thread on the Watch Repair Talk forum by a member whose watch has the same issue as mine:

Girard Perregaux

One of the members posted this reply:

I recently serviced one of these GP gyromatic movements. It was a 36000 vph version & as such was based on the AS1920. I had a similar issue with the stiff winding, I removed the automatic works & it then wound like butter smooth. So I soaked the automatic works in lighter fluid for 24hrs, then soaked the reverse wheels in isopropanol for a few hours. Rebuilt the works placed a drop of D5 on the reverse wheels. Winds great know.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Thank you for your thoughts and advice Jerry.

I actually tried that this morning when I removed the assembly--moving each wheel in both directions and they do move freely. As each wheel moves, it moves the other wheel. I did not try to move them while they were on installed on the movement.

However, with the auto wind assembly off the movement and rotor attached, the wheels will turn in one direction but not the other.

Or did you mean to try and move the wheels while they are installed on the movement?

While looking online, I found this thread on the Watch Repair Talk forum by a member whose watch has the same issue as mine:

Girard Perregaux

One of the members posted this reply:

Paul
While I do not have the movement in hand , its my understanding that everything functions properly installed until the rotor is installed. Since I have not worked on this movement, I would assemble everything minus the rotor. Hold one and or both of the upper wheels that are engaged by the rotor and attempt to wind the movement. If it will not wind, but winds when not being held, your problem almost has to be in the clutch assembly.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Paul Raposo]

Ok, I removed the rotor and held one of the wheels and the movement won't wind. Then held the other wheel and again it won't wind.

So do I now need to disable the clutch assembly and clean it?

 

[Chris Radek]

Is it serviced? Hand-winding on some automatics causes these reversers to spin at high speeds, and they should be clean and properly lubed to work right.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Ok, I removed the rotor and held one of the wheels and the movement won't wind. Then held the other wheel and again it won't wind.

So do I now need to disable the clutch assembly and clean it?

Paul
You clearly have a clutch issue. At the very least, you will need to properly clean as mentioned by Chris. Without having the clutch wheel in hand, I cannot tell you if they will disassemble, but I suspect not. Maybe someone can. If not, the wheel assemblies will need to be soaked until the two wheels of each assembly will freely rotate in opposite
directions or independent of each other. Clean and Lube as also mentioned by Chris.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Paul Raposo]

I just checked the clutch assembly again and the top wheels turn independently of each other while the bottom wheels do not.

I'm going to try cleaning the assembly without disassembly and see how that works.

 

[Paul Raposo]

I removed the clutch wheels from the bridge and I cleaned them with alcohol, then soaked them in lighter fluid and still each gear will turn in one direction--opposite of each other--but I can't get both discs to turn in both directions.

The disc with the jewels underneath it will turn counter clockwise and the disc underneath will turn clockwise, but I can't get each disc to turn in both directions.

Edited to add: Well, I don't know what I did, but the hand winding is working now. I guess I did clean the clutch assembly correctly.

Both discs on each wheel turn when I move the rotor and the bottom discs on each wheel turn when I hand wind the movement.

Thank you Jerry and Chris for you help with this, very much appreciate you both taking time to give me your advice

 

[MrRoundel]

Good work. While I haven't worked on that particular movement, I do want to get one someday, as I really like GP wristies.

I just finished working on a 17J GP Gyromatic, and works great. I am not sure that the auto-wind is working as well as it should, the watch runs great on a hand wind.

In discussing the automatic mechanisms with those experienced in such things, it sounds like one really needs to clean them well, but also follow up with special lubricants that are made for such things. Fixodrip, Epilame, are some names it goes by. Apparently it is a lubricant in a fast-evaporating carrier, like acetone, that leaves a lubricating coating on the parts which is unlikely to migrate from them. I once made a batch with watch-oil mixed with naptha. I used it on my nephew's Wittnauer auto. I haven't heard any complaints about it stopping yet, but who knows. Good luck.

 

[Chris Radek]

Epilame is not a lubricant, it is a surface treatment that holds oil (separately applied later) in place. Some automatic mechanisms, notably some modern rolex reversing wheels, require it.

 

[Al J]

In discussing the automatic mechanisms with those experienced in such things, it sounds like one really needs to clean them well, but also follow up with special lubricants that are made for such things. Fixodrip, Epilame, are some names it goes by. Apparently it is a lubricant in a fast-evaporating carrier, like acetone, that leaves a lubricating coating on the parts which is unlikely to migrate from them. I once made a batch with watch-oil mixed with naptha. I used it on my nephew's Wittnauer auto. I haven't heard any complaints about it stopping yet, but who knows. Good luck.

You are likely referring to Lubeta V105:



You dip the reversing wheel in it, blow off the excess, and let it dry under a cover:



Note that the solvent carrier will melt plastic, so be careful with it...

Cheers, Al

 

[MrRoundel]

Yes, Lubeta is one name I have heard the treatment called. Thanks for clearing things up. Cheers.