Gilbert kitchen clock stops

[bsg]

Hi,

here comes a bad student again.

So, Sessions clock from my previous post seems to run just fine. That clock was actually a test subject for me, so I can try to repair Gilbert kitchen clock. This Gilbert clock was so bad due to worn pivot holes that minute hand would move like five degrees or more when you wind it. Also, it did not have enough power, was randomly stopping, and was a pain to put in beat.

So I took whole mechanism apart, washed it, polished pivots (they were surprisingly much better that on Sessions clock), and put new bushings for both trains. Then I test assembled it one train at a time without a spring to make sure that gears are not binding and can move up and down between plates.
Then I put it all back together.

It definitely sounds much better. This one has an easily removable verge, so if I remove it, it runs like ventilator, i.e. not jamming. But, it stops randomly after a half day of running.

I am now lost at what I messed up. What can it be? Is pendulum amplitude enough?

Here is a short movie link:

New video by Stanislav Borodai

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[R. Croswell]

Hi,

here comes a bad student again.

So, Sessions clock from my previous post seems to run just fine. That clock was actually a test subject for me, so I can try to repair Gilbert kitchen clock. This Gilbert clock was so bad due to worn pivot holes that minute hand would move like five degrees or more when you wind it. Also, it did not have enough power, was randomly stopping, and was a pain to put in beat.

So I took whole mechanism apart, washed it, polished pivots (they were surprisingly much better that on Sessions clock), and put new bushings for both trains. Then I test assembled it one train at a time without a spring to make sure that gears are not binding and can move up and down between plates.
Then I put it all back together.

It definitely sounds much better. This one has an easily removable verge, so if I remove it, it runs like ventilator, i.e. not jamming. But, it stops randomly after a half day of running.

I am now lost at what I messed up. What can it be? Is pendulum amplitude enough?

Here is a short movie link:

New video by Stanislav Borodai

photos.app.goo.gl

From the video, the drop off of the exit pallet (onto the entry pallet) of the verge is quite excessive. Try moving the verge a tiny bit closer to the escape wheel until the drops off of both pallets is equal when you move the crutch slowly by hand. This will improve amplitude after which you will need to put it in beat by slightly adjusting the crutch.

The time train must do more than not jam. Any bushings that are not on true center will increase friction even if the train does not jam. fast running with the verge removed proves nothing. With the spring completely let down so there is zero tension on the great wheel, and with the verge removed, turn the winding key and see how many clicks it takes for the wheels to start turning. Usually only a few if all is well.

RC

 

[Willie X]

It sounds really bad and I can't see the video very well. The camera needs to be a lot closer. Willie X

 

[bsg]

Here is a picture and new movie. I tried to move the verge closer this time.

 

[bsg]

Thanks a lot RC.

 

[wow]

The clock is out of beat. Bend the center of the crutch very slightly to the left and try it again. It must be in beat to keep running.

 

[Willie X]

What RC said.

And then, you may need to widen the pallet spacing a bit too. The pallets should span x + (1/2) tooth.

Looks like someone may have ground the entrance pallet off a bunch??

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

You still need to significantly reduce the drop onto the entrance pallet. Keep moving the verge little by little closer to the escape wheel. If you get to the point where the escapement locks up before the drops are equal, do what Willie said and widen the pallet spacing just a bit. If you have calipers that are accurate to 0.001", measure the spacing before you change anything. The pallets may be hardened so if you try to bend them, they may snap off. You can usually bend the pallet strip near the center next to the saddle. 0.003" or 0.004" may be enough. You can test with a file on the back side to see if the pallets are hard. If so, you can heat to dull red hot and let it cool VERY slowly to anneal the steel so it can be bent. You can reharden by heating to dull red and quenching in water or oil. (You do not need to reharden until you have everything working)

Once you have relatively small and equal drops off of both pallets, then you can bend the crutch slightly to put it in beat. Unequal drops and out of beat make almost the same sound and adjusting the drops will affect the beat, so do the drops first, then set the beat.

RC

 

[Dick Feldman]

One of the best explanations of verge adjustment is in This Old Clock by David S Goodman.
Now is a good time to learn that.
That book/publication should be available through your local library system or can be purchased on eBay or Amazon.
Not too expensive.
While you have the spring/s let down, rock the first wheel back and forth while watching the pivots all of the way to the top. If you see pivots moving in their bores, that may be a source of power loss. Do that for front and rear plates and both trains.
Any looseness in the verge saddle can be a problem as well. That can be remedied with bushings in the saddle or other means.
Best,
Dick

 

[bsg]

Bought it. Time to read. Thanks!

 

[shutterbug]

You are not getting much recoil on the entry pallet. My instincts say narrow the spacing between the pallets a bit. But I wouldn't argue with Willie about that

 

[steamer471]

If you slow the video down you can actually see it skipping several teeth on the entry pallet.

 

[Willie X]

Yep, pretty sure that side got ground off a bunch. I've seen where people just shove them into a bench grinder! Just some dummy with a bench grinder I guess.
Willie X

 

[bsg]

So, first, a warning about the book. DO NOT BUY a kindle addition of Amazon. It is completely broken. Had to order a paper one.

How did it ever run? I swear I did not do anything to it, this is how I got it.

Since I don't have a book yet, which one is entry pallet? The one bent 45 degrees?

Thanks!

 

[bsg]

Also, I guess, how to move it closer? By rotating the whole little assembly with the pin, or bending the pin?

 

[Willie X]

The right one. They vary but probably bent about 160°.

And Yes. And that little arm holding the pallet pivot pin is called the 'dog-bone' by many.

I think the safest way to move the dog-bone is with an especially long punch and a small hammer. Others will use several other methods. Ain't this fun? Willie X

 

[wow]

Yes, the one on the right.
Yes, move the whole assembly very slightly.

 

[bsg]

Sure it is fun. As long as it works in the end. And the end is a measurable distance away.

 

[Willie X]

That's all right.
I'm a firm believer in 'baby steps'.
So, get back to reading and I won't jump in again until you say so. Willie X

 

[Dick Feldman]

bsg,
You have already learned a lot of good lessons.
It is too bad you are a victim of a previous poor repair attempt.
Thank you for your good attitude.
Dick

 

[shutterbug]

The verge looks like it's ground correctly, but it sure has a new look. My guess is that it either came off another clock or was purchased new and isn't quite compatible with your EW. You could move it a bit closer to the wheel, but you may just need to get a better fitting one.

 

[bsg]

Hmm, so, unless I read it all wrong, if the concern is to minimize the free-wheeling of escape wheel, i.e. drop, why in the book I am reading the drop is defined as the distance from pallet to the outgoing tooth? Who cares about outgoing tooth?

Won't it make more sense to define it as a distance the incoming tooth has to travel before it hits the corresponding pallet, observed by moving the pendulum to the point right before the opposite pallet lets go? I guess both definitions may be equivalent given pallet thickness is proper relative to tooth spacing.

Confused. Thanks.

 

[R. Croswell]

Hmm, so, unless I read it all wrong, if the concern is to minimize the free-wheeling of escape wheel, i.e. drop, why in the book I am reading the drop is defined as the distance from pallet to the outgoing tooth? Who cares about outgoing tooth?

Won't it make more sense to define it as a distance the incoming tooth has to travel before it hits the corresponding pallet, observed by moving the pendulum to the point right before the opposite pallet lets go? I guess both definitions may be equivalent given pallet thickness is proper relative to tooth spacing.

Confused. Thanks.

Yes, the expressions can be confusing. First of all, we are considering a recoil escapement (the kind you have). Deadbeat and half-deadbeat escapements have different considerations. Maximizing the "lock", minimizing the "drop", and minimizing the "free-wheeling of escape wheel", are all the same. The drop off of the exit pallet is going to be the same as the drop onto the entrance pallet. I agree that it is easier to refer to the drop onto to the entrance pallet. Reducing the drop increases the lock and increases the impulse and increases the pendulum amplitude. Remember, there is an impulse at the exit pallet as well, so we also want to minimize the drop onto the exit pallet. But we want the drop onto each pallet to be equal so the escape wheel will rotate the same distance on the tick and the tock. When the drops are unequal, the escape wheel will move a small amount then a large amount then a small amount and so on.

Most books and some people here refer to the drop as being the drop off of the entrance or exit pallet and I do not know why. Just keep in mind that when someone says drop off of the __________ pallet, it is the same as the drop onto the opposite pallet.

RC

 

[Willie X]

I also like to make references like, "the distance an escape wheel tooth drops onto the entrance (or exit) pallet". This seems much easier to understand to me. I did learn it the old way but never liked it because I had to think to much.
Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

Drop on just doesn't have the same ring as drop off. It is more accurate though

 

[R. Croswell]

Drop on just doesn't have the same ring as drop off. It is more accurate though

The distance the horse travels from the barn to the gate when leaving, and the distance the horse travels from the gate to the barn when returning are the same. I think it is just a matter of whether one's eye is trained to watch the tooth leaving (off of) or arriving (onto). One can be no more accurate than the other physically, but some individuals may find that they can more accurately perceive one over the other.

RC

 

[bsg]

So, I tried to adjust it as close as possible (see video).

New video by Stanislav Borodai

photos.app.goo.gl

It ran from Saturday and stopped some time today, Thursday. Does this mean I need a new verge?

Thanks.

 

[Willie X]

That is much better but it's short on power, listen for the 'soft ticks'.

Gilbert clocks often suffer from a cracked motion gear on the hand shaft. The crack causes the little spur gear to be pushed outward, forced against the front plate.

To test, check for endplay of the handshaft. It should move freely in and out, about 10 to 15 thousandths of an inch. This little gear is located just inside the front plate.

Willie X

 

[bsg]

Seems pretty loose to me.

 

[Willie X]

Try the 'sandwich test'.

With the springs completely let down, hold the movement (like a sandwich) with the plates in plane with the floor. All the arbors should drop freely, including the pallet arbor. Lift and drop each arbor with a small screwdriver. Then turn the movement over and check it again. Each arbor should make a sharp click when it drops. A soft click (or thud) is a no pass.

'Beat amp test'. With your clock about half way wound up, hook up a good loud beat amp. Leave it on as you go about your other work. Any 'soft ticks' are a sure sign of a problem. The interval of the soft ticks is a sign of where the problem is. A 40 second interval would be a bad E-wheel pinion. 3 or 4 minutes would be one wheel down. Twice a day would be mainwheel tooth, etc, etc. If your clock will run without the pendulum, that will make your test go much faster.

Have you checked the time train for wear yet?

Willie X

 

[bsg]

All new bushings both trains. The only thing I did not do is that escape wheel dog bone up front, since it has the stamped oil sink with material taken out due to it, and new bushing edge will land right where that oil sink is, so instead of supported by full plate thickness, it may only have half of it there, so I was afraid it would fall out. But the pivot is pretty loose in that dog bone. Can that be a problem?

 

[bsg]

Loose as shown in this video:

New video by Stanislav Borodai

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[Willie X]

The escape wheel front pivot runs in a bridge. And yes that pivot hole is worn out and in dire need of replacement.

The "dog bone" supports the pallet assembly pivot pin ...

Again, have you checked the end play of the minute hand shaft

Confused, Willie X

 

[bsg]

Yes, I did verify that minute hand shaft is free to move back and forth.

Sorry, my bad terminology. Bridge, not dog bone. Will the bushing stay in there due to low surrounding wall thickness in turn due to stamped oil sink?

 

[wow]

When you bush that hole in the bridge, it is necessary to support it with something. A feeler gauge is good for that. The square end of nail set punch is often the right thickness also. It will hold fine in that bridge because it is about 1.5 mm usually. Like Willie said, it is bad and must be bushed. If the pallets are wobbly you will need to close the holes in the pin holes there.

 

[bsg]

Well, I do try to read the threads here:

"If you're made up your mind to bush this piece, you will need a #2 KWM reamer and probably a #65 bushing. I've repaired at least a thousand Sessions clocks and don't recollect bushing a 'dogbone' yet.
Willie X "

This bridge to my opinion is no different than that dog bone in the thread the quote is from, it just holds an escape gear. I will do it and see what happens.

Thanks!

 

[bsg]

Unlike other people, I am not going to send you on a wild goose chase, since search in this forum whishes to be better, so here is the link to what I quoted:

Sessions Escapement Bushing Question--Enough Material?

I'm bushing a Sessions movement with a plate thickness of 1.5mm. The escapement area is 5mm in diameter, and the bushing will be 3mm. Will 1mm of material be adequate for strength, or is this not recommended?

mb.nawcc.org

 

[Willie X]

The E-wheel 'bridge' is much larger than the 'dogbones' and will take a #19 bushing (or similar) and a #3 reamer.

This is a really odd thread.

Over and out, Willie X

 

[bsg]

Well, from your comments to that thread me being stupid determined that possibly bushing the escape gear bridge is not really necessary, since again in my stupid opinion this is no different from bushing dog bones holding escape gears in Session clocks. What's odd about it? You either do it or you don't.

 

[bsg]

And here's why I did not do it. That pivot hole in the bridge has an oil sink with material taken out. So where my new bushing will go in will not have a full plate thickness to support it. Thus, the question, would it be enough to hold the bushing? It is kind of nice to know BEFORE I start cutting metal.

 

[R. Croswell]

Well, from your comments to that thread me being stupid determined that possibly bushing the escape gear bridge is not really necessary, since again in my stupid opinion this is no different from bushing dog bones holding escape gears in Session clocks. What's odd about it? You either do it or you don't.

The escape wheel pivot hole in the bridge shown in your video (post #32) is worn out. That's not an opinion, it a matter of fact. If the pivots of the verge can be seen dancing around in the holes of the "dog bones" then these also need bushings. There is nothing odd or difficult about these repairs which are quite common. Just select the correct size bushing and install it like you do any other bushings depending on the equipment you have. Of course you can either do it or don't, but if you don't your clock will not run as well as it should.

RC

EDIT: Just to clarify, your Sessions movement does NOT have "dog bones", many others do.

 

[R. Croswell]

And here's why I did not do it. That pivot hole in the bridge has an oil sink with material taken out. So where my new bushing will go in will not have a full plate thickness to support it. Thus, the question, would it be enough to hold the bushing? It is kind of nice to know BEFORE I start cutting metal.



View attachment 746239

What you have isn't a real oil sink, just an impression. Use a Bergeon bushing that has a larger OD for a given ID and you should not have a problem. I've done dozens of these and never had problem.

RC

 

[bsg]

As far as bushing or not, I was not claiming ANYTHING. I understand quite well that this is a problem, and it is an objective reality.

I just quoted an esteemed member of this society saying he never did one. Thus my assumption. Probably again I misread what he was meaning to say. Thus the confusion. Stupid me.

And I do understand that this is a stamped oil sink, not a real machined one, but doesn't really matter since the material is gone and indeed I have to have a bushing wide enough to cover the gap.

Thanks.

And it is Gilbert this time, RC, not Sessions. Probably I just ask to many questions.

 

[R. Croswell]

I just quoted an esteemed member of this society saying he never did one......

Thanks.

Tere is all kinds of advice given here by individuals with various levels of experience. I would consider advice from those who have "done one". You should not have any problem if you follow the advice to support the bridge and use a bushing that is large enough to span the gap.

RC

 

[bsg]

Well, I did support the bridge, and used exactly the same reamer I used for the rest of those bushings I put in this clock plates. Somehow this time the hole it made was a tiny bit larger, and the new bushing did not want to stay in. I tried to use hummer and punch to keep it set, and it stayed in for a bit, but then still fell off. So, what's the method to keep bushing in? Epoxy, superglue or soldering?

Thanks.

 

[wow]

I would turn a new bushing in my lathe that fits and drill/broach the hole.

 

[bsg]

Thanks for that. I don't have a lathe, maybe not yet.

How about without a lathe?

 

[wow]

I guess the only way to do it so it is friction fit is to make the hole smaller and/or the bushing bigger. Maybe spread the bushing diameter with a hammer on as anvil and close the hole in the bridge using a round ended punch? Then you can press or drive in the bushing and it would be tight. Using glue, or solder usually ends up sloppy.

 

[bsg]

I've been reading other posts on the forum. People say Loctite red?

 

[R. Croswell]

Well, I did support the bridge, and used exactly the same reamer I used for the rest of those bushings I put in this clock plates. Somehow this time the hole it made was a tiny bit larger, and the new bushing did not want to stay in. I tried to use hummer and punch to keep it set, and it stayed in for a bit, but then still fell off. So, what's the method to keep bushing in? Epoxy, superglue or soldering?

Thanks.

When bushing by hand, especially with a reamer that's designed to be used in a machine, it is near impossible to rotate the reamer and keep it perpendicular to the plate, so the hole reams oversize and the bushing is loose. Now that the damage is done your options are limited. If this were on the main plate where you have more room you could ream the hole for a much larger bushing and but the smaller bushing in the larger one. But if you use the same hand method that got you where you are now, you could end up with an even bigger problem. You can try any of the things WOW suggested. I believe solder would be your best option if you have not already applied glue Loctite or anything else AND if you have soldering skills. It would take only a tiny bit of solder.

EDIT: Loctite works best if there is a uniform slip fit. If the bushing is at all wobbly in the hole I would avoid Loctite. If it is a nice smooth uniform slip fit 609 Loctite (or the red stuff) is an option that should work. These Loctites are not good fillers.

RC