Gilbert arbor

[Paul Statham]

Just stripped down my first American clock, a Gilbert 1886 mantle clock for cleaning having trouble getting the arbor out ,the count wheel is riveted to the barrel and the ratchet won't budge and i don't want to force anything in case i damage something. I need to get the mainspring out to inspect and clean it. Thanks everyone hope you are all good.

 

[Willie X]

You don't take that apart any further, except to remove the spring and possibly repair the click mechanism.

To remove the spring, twist the spring backwards to the normal winding direction. It should unhook and come straight off.

Look up 'servicing mainsprings'.

Willie X

 

[Paul Statham]

Thanks Willie, click is ok i have unhooked the arbor but it won't pull out so does the ratchet wheel just stay on the arbor seems like a bad design with the count wheel rivited onto to the barrel also.

 

[wow]

Count wheel riveted into the barrell? Is that right?! Do you mean that the barrel is riveted to the plate? Please post more photos of the whole movement and from different angles.

 

[Paul Statham]

Hi wow I am trying to get the mainspring out but can't get the Arbor out, the last photo shows the barrel and the count wheel I think you call it the locking wheel I might be wrong is riveted to the barrel and the ratchet wheel is on the Arbor and I can't get it off on both barrel's does that make sense ?

 

[Mike Phelan]

From the pic it does look as if the count wheel has a rivetted post onto the barrel; seems OK to me apart from the number of times the barrel would need to rotate; surely it cannot be a week? One day or two? Half-hour single strike?

 

[disciple_dan]

It looks like the count wheel is divided into two 12-hour periods.

 

[wow]

From the pic it does look as if the count wheel has a rivetted post onto the barrel; seems OK to me apart from the number of times the barrel would need to rotate; surely it cannot be a week? One day or two? Half-hour single strike?

That’s right, Mike. I can’t tell from the photo of the wheel is a part of the barrel or separate from it like ST-124s. More photos of the barrell and arbor would sure help. Don’t believe I’ve ever worked on one like that.

 

[Paul Statham]

That’s right, Mike. I can’t tell from the photo of the wheel is a part of the barrel or separate from it like ST-124s. More photos of the barrell and arbor would sure help. Don’t believe I’ve ever worked on one like that.

 

[Paul Statham]

Hope these photos are more clear as you can see the ratchet wheel needs to come off both barrels to get the arbor out but i can't move them, and hope you can see that the count wheel is riveted, thanks for you input

 

[R. Croswell]

I’ve never seen one exactly like this, but the photo clearly shows a square hole in the ratchet wheel. Support the back side of the ratchet wheel and sharply tap the end of the arbor with a brass hammer and the ratchet wheel should just pop off.
RC

 

[Paul Statham]

Thanks RC will have a go at that.

 

[Mike Phelan]

A further look seems like it doesn't have half-hour strikes - the gaps in the count wheel are too narrow, so a single turn in a day for the barrel might just make it for a week; it also looks as if the ratchet isn't meant to be removed, so a guess says that the arbor is in two parts; an inner and outer?
I wonder it if's worth a tap on the outside end of the arbor with maybe a brass sleeve?

 

[Paul Statham]

YES success final got the arbors out, thank's RC the count wheel one came out after a couple of whacks and the other took 4 and no damage done.

Thanks again

 

[wow]

YES success final got the arbors out, thank's RC the count wheel one came out after a couple of whacks and the other took 4 and no damage done.

Thanks again

Glad you got it, Paul. Thanks for posting the new photos. If I ever run into one of these I’ll know what to do.
Will

 

[R. Croswell]

A further look seems like it doesn't have half-hour strikes - the gaps in the count wheel are too narrow, so a single turn in a day for the barrel might just make it for a week..........

I believe that is correct, unless it has a passing bell half-hour strike. Not uncommon on American clocks to find the count wheel attached directly to the main wheel with two 12-hour segments turning once in 24 hours, and 8 full turns to wind for 8 days. What is uncommon is to find this on an American movement with the mainspring in a barrel and the ratchet wheel between the plates. Perhaps Paul would post some more pictures showing the complete movement?

RC

 

[Mike Phelan]

The fact that the spring is in a barrel will certainly reduce the number of turns it can make.

 

[R. Croswell]

The fact that the spring is in a barrel will certainly reduce the number of turns it can make.

It's a rather large barrel and it looks like a fairly thin spring with a good many layers. One could tell for sure by counting the number of turns required to wind it. My guess is that the maker would not go to all this trouble to make a movement designed for one turn of the main wheel per day for less than 8-days. Will just have to wait and see.

RC

 

[Paul Statham]

Some more photos if they are any good

 

[Paul Statham]

Some more photos if they are any good View attachment 710235 View attachment 710236 View attachment 710237 View attachment 710238 View attachment 710239

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks for posting the pictures. This is a very unusual looking movement. The side mounted strike hammer bracket does not look like a high production design. On closer examination, most of the internals, except the barreled springs and the side hammer, and the back plate, look very similar to A Gilbert movement that was used in some parlor clocks - including the smooth count wheel attached to the main strike wheel.

Post #13 Mike mentioned that it doesn't have a half-hour strike on the count wheel. Gilbert did make a very similar movement (with open springs and cut away rear plate and bottom hammer) that included a small bell on the back plate for a "passing bell" half-hour strike not on the count wheel. That's not unusual but look at this blowup of two of Paul's pictures showing the center shaft. it appears to have TWO fingers. One apparently for a passing bell that this version does not have.

This raises more questions than answers in my mind. It is clearly a Gilbert, and the logo is on the back plate, but what was Gilbert trying to do or prove here? Looks like they took a fairly popular T&S movement and modified it for a higher hammer position and barreled springs. Was this a one-off modification for some special application, or a short production run until they realized the problems they created? The case doesn't look particularly unique, but is this a rare movement, or just one I have never seen before?

Gilbert stamped a date on their regulator device; this I believe is the patent date for just the regulator, not the date the movement was made.

She sure was a dirty puppy before your cleaned her up.

RC

 

[Willie X]

It will take 7 complete turns of the winding arbor to run it for a week.

This number is a little large, for a barreled spring, but surely in the realm of doable.

Willie X

 

[Paul Statham]

Thanks for that information RC very interesting, so if the date on the regulator is the patent any ideas on the date of the clock.And it will be interesting when i wind it up how long the clock runs for, yes it was very dirty gave everything a first wash to get most of the dirt of and polished the barrels right or wrong? springs look good I don't know if they are original or have been changed

 

[Willie X]

No need to polish the barrels. Normally you would spend most of your time servicing the springs, pivots and pivot holes ... Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks for that information RC very interesting, so if the date on the regulator is the patent any ideas on the date of the clock.And it will be interesting when i wind it up how long the clock runs for, yes it was very dirty gave everything a first wash to get most of the dirt of and polished the barrels right or wrong? springs look good I don't know if they are original or have been changed

If this is the original movement and case, it had to have been built on or after the patent date. The case looks early 20th c. to me, the movement is a mixed bag - the basic movement looks late 19th c., but the barreled springs suggest possibly later. I can't find this model in any of my Gilbert catalogs, perhaps someone will come along and identify it.

Did you mean to say that you polished the barrels, or that you polished the pivots? Polishing barrels would only be for cosmetic reasons if you chose to do so.

How long it will run, and how long it is supposed to run could turn out to be two different things. We know for sure that the winder turns one full turn every day. With the spring completely let down, the number of turns to fully wind it equals the number of turns to completely unwind it. Of course it will stop running a little before that. If it runs lass than 8 days and stops more than two turns from completely let down, then there is likely a power loss problem somewhere in the movement. Not unusual for an open spring 8-day clock to run 10 or 12 days or even longer if everything is in good condition. With these barreled springs it remains to be seen, but I would be looking for at least 8 days run time

RC

 

[Paul Statham]

Thanks Willy X and RC for the info yes i did mean the barrels i got a bit carried away with it don't normally do that opps