Germania - History and Identification

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Ulan, Jul 22, 2011.

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  1. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Hi Gents,
    Hereby I present you my new purchase - Germania s/n 54177.
    The clock is a special one because of 2 reasons:
    - it is short version ( German says Kurz - it means longer then dwarf, smaller then for ex. GB P64 pendulum version)
    - has date on the case back that can help with production date positioning

    220.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22
    221.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22
    222.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22
    223.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22

    With above, looks as 54177 belongs to May 4th, 1881 ( or April 5th ).
    Since start of production in 1871 in average 5000 items a year - it is reasonable.

    Does anybody have other marks to ensure production date?

    There are some missing parts, some are added :)and not orginal but the case is solid and healthy - easy to restore.:cool:
     
  2. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Greetings U1,

    this is an interesting clock.

    The date means May, 4th and propably 1887 (please look, whether the last number is a 1 or 7)

    Most likely this is the date, the clock was sold- not the date, the clock was made.

    regards albra
     
  3. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Inscriptions like this, made on the back of the case by the seller were often a form of "guarantee card".
     
  4. Mr Smith

    Mr Smith Registered User

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    #4 Mr Smith, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    They used ink-pencil in those days.

    How much did you pay for it? (If it is not a secret.)
     
  5. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Hi,
    Thank You for your comments, Gents.
    There is no horisontal line with this 1 or 7.
    But I do not reject the theory with 7.

    In years 1870-1880 Gustav Becker did round 180 000 clocks and for Germania 54 000 looks possible.
    When we take the theory that it is 7 - it would be nearly 3000 a year and as you know they stoped production in 1899 with round 260 000+ numbers - in 12 years over 200 000 clocks, is not it to many?

    The clock style fit better to beginng of 1880 then to the end.
    But who knows?
     
  6. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Greetings Ulan,

    Always interesting to see photos of clocks from these "other" (i.e. besides Gustav Becker) Freiburger factories.

    It doesn't help all that much with the dating of this example. But Germania was founded 1 October 1871, and the thousandth "Regulatoruhr" was finished on 30 June 1872. So whatever the total made by 1900, it took them a bit to get going.

    Regards
    Zepernick
     
  7. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #7 John Hubby, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Ulan, thanks for posting this very interesting clock. It has the lowest serial number of any of the Germania clocks I have documented until now. I believe quite firmly that the date on the case back is 1881, not 1887. Here is my rationale:

    As Zep points out Germania was founded in October 1871 and operated independently until July 1899 when it merged with Becker and others as part of the VFU merger. I have one Germania clock documented that is stamped with DGMS 103274, serial number 256783, that had to be made between November 1898 and June 1899. The patent was a Germania one filed 22 August 1898 and granted 1 November 1898, used by Gustav Becker in the first half of 1899 prior to the merger, and seen on many later GB clocks made after the merger. So, that clock indicates total Germania production of perhaps 260,000 prior to the merger, an average of 9,286 clocks per year from 1871. Even with the somewhat slow start mentioned by Zep there would have to be a really significant change in production in the late 1880's if your clock was made in 1885 or 1886, assuming a 1887 sale date. See the following.

    If this clock was sold in May 1881, it was likely produced in 1880. That would indicate average production of just over 6,600 clocks per year from June 1872 until this one was made, increasing to an average of 10,830+ between 1880 and the merger in 1899. If the clock was made seven years later in 1876 assuming a sale date of 1887, that would severely skew the production numbers to show an average of only 3,800 per year 1872-1886 increasing to 15,800+ from then to 1899. At least at this writing I have not found such a slow start with very rapid increase in later years for any other German company operating between 1870 and 1900; my data show a steady increase in production for example for Concordia, H. Endler, A. Willmann, and of course Gustav Becker during those same years.

    Hopefully more dated examples will be found in due course that will help resolve the actual production by Germania.

    One question, I notice the logo stamped on this clock is "Genossench Germania" and not the "Regulatorfabrik Germania" Eagle/Anchor/Clockwheel logo as found on later examples. In Schmid's "Lexikon" this is extended to "genossenchaftlicher" which I believe translates to "cooperative". I will appreciate a confirmation.
     
  8. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Hi,
    John I am pleased you consider my theory as probable.
    The very early Germanias they have Genossench Germania with very similar to GB anchor in the middle. It was at their begining - round 3 xxx + s/n
    5.png
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22
    Later on - due to court legal case with GB they changed it only for Genossench Germania, as the example is this mine 54xxx ( and additional 2 - 24xxx, and 174xxx - that I have in my collection)
    There was noticed the period after the legal case with GB that they did not sign the movements at all - round 40xxx.
    Early 200xxx were signed with logo very similar to Endler:
    224.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22
    And later on 240xxx was the one John, you, mentioned:
    225.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-22

    Maybe some of other collegues would have some more pictures to document the serial numbers and the range per each logo?
     
  9. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    A splendid clock, Ulan!

    That is a reason to spend a vacation in Poland...;)

    John,

    the term "Genossensch" is an abbreviation for
    Genossenschaft, which indeed means cooperative.

    According to the Lexikon, the Anchor/Eagle/Gear logo was
    registered in 1896.

    The old handwritings are tricky, I would tend to say it's
    a "seven" from a distance, but I wouldn't bet on it.
    Maybe the picture can somehow explain, what I mean...

    Jurgen
     

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  10. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Ulan, you forget about another type of signature, without Germania Logo:
    used ~ 20000 -40000:
     

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  11. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Ulan, what a wonderful collection, congratulations! This is the first I have seen of the two earlier logos as shown on 260X and 2111X0. I certainly can see why Gustav Becker took action against Germania regarding the first logo, being almost a direct copy of the Becker logo at that time.

    I also hope others have some Germania clocks that they can share with us.

    I would be most interested to know the complete serial numbers for the clock movements you have posted as well as those you mention that are in your collection, also to see their other features such as photos of the complete clock, the support bracket, gong, and other parts. If you don't wish to post them here it would be most appreciated if you could send to my email pastimes@juno.com. The reason I try to document as much as I can for clock features as they evolve for each maker, is that the changes made across the years are quite important to be able to recognize them when the logo or other information may not be available.

    Once again, thanks very much for sharing!
     
  12. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Tarant, thanks very much for posting your clocks. Actually the logo on the clock that Ulan first posted here (S/N 54177) has the same logo as on your two clocks.

    I would also ask if you could post more photos of your clocks so we can see exactly what they look like and to document their features.

    It is amazing that in just a couple of days we now have seen twice as many Germania clocks than have been posted in this message board since it started!! :thumb::thumb:
     
  13. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #13 zepernick, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    The full name (from a volume about these cooperatives, not just the clockmaking ones) was as given below. The form given in the Lexikon is adjectival.

    Ulan, could we please have a reference to the court case between GB and Germania?

    As far as the dates for the various logos, does anyone have actual registration records? Similarly, let's see more examples before setting up assumed dates for various markings :). My 80918 is also below.

    Zepernick
     

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  14. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    I posted photos from our local forum and my archive. These are, unfortunately, not my clocks...
    Ulan has Germania signed clocks.
    BTW. We suppose, that there's a lot of unsigned (but numbered) clocks from this factory.
    For instance: my clock (first 2 photos from left) and this one, belongs to "my" watchmaker (signed A. Eppner & Co, Breslau - the only wall clock from this factory I've ever seen - and still in Wroclaw) Movements looks like other signed two weight Germiania's.
     

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  15. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #15 zepernick, Jul 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    There's an interesting problem -- no, let's call it a "fascinatingly-messy matter" -- related to German trademarks that's relevant here. And although it's come up before, it's worth another look. Especially because there are colleagues in Poland who might be able to help!

    Briefly:

    -- Before the "new" Waarenzeichengesetz of 1894, there was not a central, Reichs-wide registration. Rather, following the Markenschutzgesetz of 1874, registrations were made at whatever Amtsgericht, i.e. local or regional court, served the town or city where the firm was located. Although there was to be a central record of all of these registrations, it wasn't until 1887 that a publication of them was readily available.

    The first example (below) shows a registration of two Gustav Becker marks in 1887. Notice please that although Gustav Becker was in Freiburg, the appropriate registration was in Schweidnitz (Świdnica).

    Two other examples are from the AJU of 1892, which listed registrations for a short time. Thomas Haller was in Schwenningen but the registration was made in Rottweil. And Tobias Bäuerle in St. Georgen registered their mark in Villingen. Foreign firms all had to register in Leipzig.

    But trademarks which were first registered before 1887 are often difficult to find a registration date for.

    -- The 1894 law also specified that trademarks registered (somewhere) under the 1874 law would have until 1897 to reregister with the new Reichs-wide system. After that they would be dropped. In some cases, the first registration date, or an earlier registration date was indicated in these post 1894-reregistrations.

    So, using an example I've posted previously, Lenzkirch when they reregistered their mark indicated that it had been first registered in 1875. Similarly, Becker in the first case indicated the earlier registration date of 1887. But in the second case, a date of 1883 is given. Where did that come from? And we know that the "1887" anchor goes back much farther, in any case.

    Other marks that were registered somewhere earlier do not show the earlier date when reregistered post-1894. The PHS "Hase" is a good example. LFS another.

    --------------

    What this comes down to is that someone will sometimes find a post-1894 registration date and assume, understandably, that it was the first and earliest registration. Or quite commonly, it's not known if a post-1894 registration is the earliest or earliest use. In addition, there are quite a few trademarks that were around before 1887, evidently registered at a local or regional Amtsgericht, that we don't have registration dates for.

    ---------------

    It would therefore be extremely nice -- indeed, a horo-noble thing -- if someone might find out if the authorities in Świdnica still have any records of the registrations made previous to 1894 by the clock factories in what was Freiburg.

    Regards
    Zepernick
     

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  16. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Hi Guys,
    Deep in forest - more trees

    Jurgen - Poland is the great place, special the west and south part - were we both with Tarant live. Feel welcome!
    Your sheet example I read this two 1 1 in german style on my case ---> but not sure 100%.

    Enclosed Germania 24671:
    227.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-05-31
    By ulan65 at 2011-05-31

    228.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-05-31
    (numbers from the movement and pendulum do not match each other, but style and the fact that Germania signed the pendulum in that way may mean it is orginal. the 2xxx difference may shows that in production flow parts can be different by a few thousand, or someone mixed it in final assembly)
    229.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-05-31
    The clock is in reconstruction phase but when ready will look as this:
    http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7315/68205216.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-06-29

    To be continued.
     
  17. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Tarant, our thanks very much for posting these photos. I've looked closely at the back plates for both of these movements and they appear absolutely identical to those that have Germania logo stamps. Also, the case designs are sympathetic and of the same style as those known to be made by Germania.

    You mention the retail watchmaker named on the second clock is still in business. Is there "any" possibility that he might have sale records to show exactly when this clock was sold? That would be wonderful information!

    Regardin your clock, what is the serial number? It is mostly covered up in the photo, looks like XX811 but no way to tell for sure. That information would be much appreciated!
     
  18. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #18 John Hubby, Jul 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Ulan, I've looked at the photo of the back of your first clock under high magnification and using Photoshop to see differences in shading, etc, it is still my opinion that the last number is a "1" thus the clock was sold in 1881. That is a much better fit in any event.

    Thanks for posting this clock 24671. Congratulations on your restoration work, the final result is very beautiful! I must say I am quite impressed with the quality of the cases used by Germania in these earlier production clocks (1871-1891), they are simple in design yet with an outstanding character.

    One thing I notice with this clock compared to the others seen thus far is the very wide stamping of the serial number. All the others posted to date have the numbers quite close together as appears to be the normal practice; I wonder why this one is different? I expect there must be others so we can see that in due course.

    Also, regarding the difference in serial numbers of the movement and that one written on the pendulum. While it may be possible that a mixup happened at the factory however I suspect a more likely reason is that the two different clocks were shipped to a retailer with the pendulums separated, and the mixup occurred there. For example I have found Gustav Becker 400-Day clocks with very close serial numbers being only a dozen apart, where the pendulums were found to be switched. In this instance, one clock was in England and one was in my collection, and only by the fact that I have been documenting these for many years did I discover the mixup. I contacted the other owner, and we swapped the pendulums so they now have matching numbers.

    And, please do continue with your posting!
     
  19. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Oh no...Albert Eppner established this company (with his brother, Eduard) in 1852. First seat was in Lähn (Wleń), since 1869 - in Silberberg (Srebrna Góra). They also had (office only I think, not a plant) in Breslau (Wrocław). The production (only the pocket watches in last period - see last photo) was finished probably in 1945. I've seen before only pocket watches signed "E. Eppner & Co Breslau ".
    My clockmaker (not older than me) bought this clock on January, in Wrocław indeed, and you can see it in his workshop.....

    My "hypothetical" Germania has SN 58817.


    On photos wall clock produced in Wleń (i.e ~1852 - 1869) presented on our forum few years ago.
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Town archives in Świdnica were destroyed in 1945. The remnants were transfered into State Archive in Wrocław in 1949. I don't know whether they are accessible.
     

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  20. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Sorry for misunderstanding, I was in the hurry.
    The clock I presented as the last it is GB serial number round 24x xxx ( means the same year brather ) and with special gong construction, started from May 1881. The case of that clock is the same as I have in my Germania 24671 ( that leads me to the conclusion that that time Endler, Germania, GB might use the same external woodworker company - but there is no evidence about that)
    With my Germania was present the part of crown but there were a few unknown details - when I saw GB somewhere - I knew that it can help in restoration a lot. In process now, I will share pictures when ready.
    Germania - the quality of the clock as such - we can compare to GB.
     
  21. zepernick

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Thank you Ulan for the information about what most likely happened, alas, to the Schweidnitz trademark registrations. It would have been most interesting to know when the various marks of the "Freiburger Regulateure" factories were registered.

    Although the data are quite limited, there is some specific information about what some of the cooperatives were actually making in certain years. More generally, but relatedly, we still tend to assume -- despite my own stubborn urgings these past several years:) -- that it was "normal" for a movement and case to be from the same manufacturer.

    The specific first.

    Some information about Endler's resources when it came to Gehäuse, clock cases, shows up in the first three clips, below. In the first it's noted that for the 8-month business year of 1872, Endler made 4039 going (only) movements, 1825 striking movements, and 1092 cases. Of these 3843 going movements, 1769 striking, and 3528 cases were sold. Because they didn't have enough workers in their own case-making facility, they had to buy in 1836 cases. Of course this doesn't indicate how many "complete clocks" were sold.

    The second clip noted that at the end of 1873, Endler had made 5535 going movements, 2996 striking movements, and 4696 clock cases. They sold 5215 going movements, 2790 striking, and 6491 clock cases "so that the cooperative still had to buy in 1795 cases." And therefore to satisfy the need for more cases they enlarged the factory in the autumn of 1873.

    The third clip below, from the Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung, jumps ahead to 1885. By then Endler is turning out around 12,000 movements of various kinds each year. And in the carpentry shops, about 18,000 cases. So even if all movements were in their own cases, they had an extra 6,000 or so to sell, probably to other firms as well as wholesalers.

    The more general aspect is that it was in fact totally normal for movements and cases to come from different manufacturers. And what one manufacturer did at any one time doesn't change this general rule for the entire market. For example, through wholesalers the clockmaker-retailer could get a separate regulator movement, a complete clock, or a case.

    Nor was there anything "below board" about this. The clockmakers' journals of the period are laced with ads such as the one from Kappel (below) in 1885, addressed to trade wholesalers, offering their regulator clock cases. Or the one from Weirich, also from 1885, which states that they offer regulators with and without movements.

    Even as late as 1904 -- and just in Freiburg in Schlesien alone -- there were 15 (!) firms making clock cases, some of them specifically for regulators. They're marked in yellow in the clip below, from the 1904 trade addressbook.

    What this comes down to is when in the last clip -- also from the 1885 DUZ -- Germania's cases were judged to be "primitive" in some aspects when compared with Gustav Becker's and Endler's, we don't know if they were all actually then made by Germania.

    Then too, our Germania cases are very nice indeed -- needless to say:).

    Regards
    Zep
     

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  22. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Zep,

    that DUZ article really is somewhat "arrogant" ans unilateral.
    Sponsored by Lenzkirch, perhaps? ;)
    What's supposed to be wrong with caryatids?

    Jurgen
     
  23. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Jürgen,

    It's certainly "down the nose," isn't it? But whenever there was a DUZ review of an exhibition, it seems as if one firm -- if usually one that was outlandish -- was similarly crapped upon (to use a tech term). Think today they'd probably defend the comments as being "differenziert," in the sense that people who say nice things can't be sophisticated.

    On the other hand, maybe Germania wasn't advertising enough in the DUZ:).

    Regards
    Zep
     
  24. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Zep thank You for your effort!
    What the interesting info with the evidence. That helps a lot, as it was the mine theory since begining, no facts based, but just feeling.
    BTW I have in my collection the single weight clock with GB movement and GB equipment in the case stemped Endler.
    I do not exclude that it was assembled a few years ago :) but maybe not. It might be assembled by GB factory and they did not find out the stemp or just someone assembled the clock from using different producers' parts and built the clock for market in those days
    The clock ( base on movement date round 1879)
    http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3889/79254048.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-06-01
    http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9281/83214573.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-06-01
    The movement coming from the case ( I do not have better pictures)
    262.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-05-28
    And Endler's step.
    http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8432/22860767.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-06-01
    Can be that it is the special one case or just the fake. Who knows now!
     
  25. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Zep, excellent info regarding the casemakers in Freiburg. It certainly explains why we find "identical" cases with more than one makers' movements installed. In smaller clocks such as the 400-Day variety I've documented many case designs used by as many as four movement manufacturers for their clocks, even to the extent of finding the same case illustrated in different makers' catalogs and advertisements.

    With regard to Ulan's Becker clock having an Endler case, I would bet that the case was purchased from Endler by Becker and the clock sold as a "original" Gustav Becker. In my research on Becker it is evident they had very large capacity for case manufacture and did make a majority of their wood cases but it makes sense that they would buy in some cases; I've not seen anything yet that would indicate Becker had surplus capacity in this area and tried to sell cases. At least so far I've not seen any other maker's movement or any unmarked movement in a case that had a GB stamp on the back.

    Ulan, thanks for clarifying the information regarding your Germania 24671 and also for posting your Becker with the Endler case. That adds one more Becker to my database. :thumb:
     
  26. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Gents,
    The yongest german lady in the collection 174062 (before cleaning, after purchase)
    289.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2010-09-05

    And again pendulum number does not correspond, missed by +2
    290.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2010-09-05
    With Made in Germany manufacture indication
    (BTW does someone know the year when it was introduced, some import from Germany regulation?, we got discussion with Tarant - started round 1895?
    291.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2010-09-05

    To deny some opinions that quality of Germanias' cases were worst then others pls see the way how it was fixed the knob.....
    292.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2010-09-05
    ....before you judge the case yourself ( the weights and books seems to be not orginal - but you never know considering how wide is the case)
    293.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-07-24

    Post your Germanias here. I would do.:rolleyes:
     
  27. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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  28. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #28 zepernick, Jul 29, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Tarant --

    The requirement that all "articles of foreign manufacture" wishing entry into the United States be marked -- in English -- with the country of origin came with the (US's) McKinley Tariff Act of 1890, dated 1 October 1890. It went into effect 2 March 1891.

    Unfortunately, there's a lot of inaccurate information about this requirement floating about. However, D.K. Stevenson published a two-part article about such requirements and markings entitled "Made Where When?" It appeared in the November 2009 and February 2010 issues of CLOCKS magazine.

    That Wikipedia article is inaccurate (not to say shoddy). The UK's Merchandise Marks Act of 1887 did not introduce the requirement. If it had, quite obviously all German clocks entering the UK would have been so marked after then. They weren't. Then too, Germany had nothing to say about US tariff law, to say the least. But this entry is typical of the nonsense (frankly) that's now "out there."

    By the way, the Merchandise Marks Acts are also discussed in the article mentioned above. Indeed, the relevant parts of the original acts are reproduced. As are various US requirements over the years.

    Regards
    Zepernick
     
  29. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Ulan, thanks again for posting one of your Germania clocks. This one is very significant for a manufacturing date reason because of the "Made in Germany" imprint in the movement/gong bracket. As Zep points out, that would have not been placed earlier than March 1891 so this clock could have been made in 1891 or perhaps later. In review of the other clocks that are dated and considering the approximate production rate based on the earlier discussions, my estimate is that it was made about 1892.

    In the short time we have been discussing Germania clocks here, we have identified five data points for marking when these clocks were made, as follows:
    • October 1871, first production following company formation.
    • 30 June 1872, clock serial number 1000 was finished.
    • 2nd half 1880, clock serial number 54177 was made based on 4 May 1881 date found on case.
    • 1892, clock serial number 174062 was made based on interpolation of data and not earlier than March 1891.
    • First half 1899, clock serial number 256783 was made, after DGMS 103274 was granted 1 November 1898 and before the merger in July 1899.
    These dates have some variable accuracy using parameters I have developed in my other dating research, so there will likely be some adjustment made as more clocks are documented. However, just these five data points provide a very interesting "first pass" at construction of a dating chart, which I have copied and added as a scan below. The above five data points are all incorporated in the graph. I think this can be used for estimating approximate manufacturing dates for Germania clocks with an accuracy of +/- a few months in the early years, to about +/- a year or two in the middle (1875 - 1895), back to +/- a few months as the merger date of July 1899 was approached and Germania production stopped.

    Any questions or comments will be appreciated.
     

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  30. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Zepernick, John - fascinating posts !

    Early Germania, pictures from net auction. Shape of the anchor is interesting. The case, weights, pendulum are not original.
     

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  31. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Tarant, thanks again for posting another Germania, even if a marriage to a non-original case and other parts. Actually the marriage is very sympathetic, making a quite attractive clock.

    Using the dating graph I posted yesterday, this serial number 8726 was made about early 1874. That adds to the time that the RG "anchor" logo was used. At this point it looks like the last use may have been in early 1876, as it is absent on clock serial number 22069 made about mid-1876 and does not appear on any later clock so far documented.
     
  32. Scottie-TX

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    Vienna Movement Germania

    My latest acquisition sans escape wheel scored for a mere $35! Backplate stamped, Genossensch Germania. Below, Freiburg Schles. "22540" stamped at bottom.
    What can be said about mfr.? Vulliamy pallets and seatboard mount -power mtce.
     

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  33. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Vienna Movement Germania

    Scottie, Great find, Greater price!! I'm merging this thread with one that is "ALL ABOUT GERMANIA", your clock adds to the confirmation of when the particular logo was used. Based on the serial number it was made in 1876 based on the info we have compiled to date. Have a good read in the thread, lots of info on Germania.
     
  34. Scottie-TX

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    #34 Scottie-TX, Aug 20, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Yeah! A GOBBA good stuff in here. Thanks JOHN, for bringing it over here to the compilation.
    Dial is beautiful with only one faint hairline. Brass is a beautiful rose gold color and hands like two others in this thread have a bronzish patina. Alas, no matching number on back altho numbers are repeated on seatboard and bracket.
     

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  35. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Hi,
    Finally, I got it! Hunting is completed :D.
    Last purchase Germania 8714 on the first type of signature, still in bought shape:
    1.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-09-01
    http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1640/92907312.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-09-01
    2.jpg
    By Ulan65 at 2011-09-01
    3.jpg
    By ulan65 at 2011-09-01
    For comparison; the case from GB - circa from the same adge:
    1.png
    By Ulan65 at 2011-09-01
     
  36. John Hubby

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Ulan, congratulations! You have acquired a really fine example, even though needing some restoration. This one is only twelve digits serial number lower than posted by Tarant back in July, that has the same logo and has so far the highest number with that logo. It is certainly easy to see why GB was not happy with Germania's logo design. :D

    The comparison with the actual GB clock shown in Tran Duy Ly's book, Item 302, is amazing. The cases are virtually identical in all respects. I am still hoping to document all the clocks in Tran's book with serial number, year, factory, etc. In fact many of the clocks illustrated are from Braunau and mistakenly shown as being from Freiburg and using "Freiburg" numbers for dating which are from 22 to 26 years off from actual.

    Using the dating table I constructed earlier, your clock was made very early in 1874 based on its serial number. I notice a number written on the back of the pendulum that "may" be the same as the movement serial number but that is not very clear.

    I will look forward to future photos showing your restoration of this beautiful clock.
     
  37. Ulan

    Ulan Registered User

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    Hi,
    John thank You for your comments and the appreciation.
    I wanted to have such case for years, of cause from Freiburg's manufactures. A few times I met such, but with not signed movement.

    Sure, I would post the picture after the restoration.

    Now, I need to repair the movement - the main axle where you block the hands is broken, in the place of the whole. This is very common malfunction ...and should not be problem to repair it. The rest of the movement seems to be OK.

    PS; The number on the pendulum is the same as on the movement.
     
  38. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Germania - that case can help with production's date

    AWSUM find, Uie! I LOVE those turned, open colums and the overall design.
    Curious tho about the weight position - That it falls to the left and how that is arranged?
    Oh, O.K. I think I get it. (answers own question) It's lying on it's back on the floor and does hang on center. Thanks! and Congrats!
     
  39. Gottis

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    G R help

    Hi
    Today I bought a clock
    I would like to have the help of the manufacturer
    and if you can what year
    Thanks in advance Gottis in Sweden
    1.jpg


    2.jpg
    -> posts merged by system <-
    The number 203289
     
  40. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    I don't recognize that mark but perhaps it is Germania Regulator who merged with Gustav Becker towards the end of the 19th C though no doubt others will know more. I'd guess it dates to around the 1880s.
     
  41. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    Again, a beautiful Vienna.

    Can you show the entire movement and the mounting bracket,
    please?
    At the moment it's puzzling me and I haven't found a match yet;
    maybe our Polish friends can drop in on it.

    Jurgen
     
  42. Gottis

    Gottis Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    Some more pic

    3.jpg


    4.jpg


    5.jpg
     
  43. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    Thank you, Gottis.
    The term "Made in Germany" indicates a dating after 1890, afaik.
    (McKinley Act, Country of Origin).
    The mark may be an older "Germania" one, but I'm not very sure,
    because they usually used "R.G." instead of "G.R.", see here:

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=76266&highlight=Germania

    Jurgen
     
  44. tarant

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    Re: G R help

    Clocks with signature GR and anchor are still unrecognized. I've seen about five clocks with this GR. Movement seems to be very simillar to those middle/late Regulator Germania clocks.
    Four signatures of RG are known (including version with and without anchor between Genossensch. Germania". But the initials are always RG, not GR. Could this be the fifth one ? Maybe...

    Germania mounted identical hands (SN 174062 from our KMZiZ forum, owner - Prgreg)
    37.jpg

    38.jpg

    39.jpg
     
  45. Gottis

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    Re: G R help

    Hi
    Thanks for all replies .. I think it looks like a scale and not an anchor
    We'll see if anyone can say exactly what it is

    Thank you all for kindness
     
  46. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Re: G R help

    I see anchor of the Graham's escapement there...
     

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  47. Gottis

    Gottis Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    thanks .. then I have one to the clock to the collection that is a bit unusual, is becoming many now
    I'm looking forward too .. see if I can find the manufacturer

    Thank you all for your kindness
     
  48. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #48 John Hubby, Dec 6, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2011
    Re: G R help

    In my opinion all indications point to this clock being made by Germania:
    • The movement back plate is identical to other Germania clocks between serial numbers 170,000 (1891) and the end of Germania production about 260,000 (1899).
    • The movement mounting bracket/gong bracket is also identical to others made in this same period.
    • The serial number falls between the one Tarant posted and the next one in my data that has the Germania crown logo.
    • The hands are identical to other Germania Clocks as Tarant mentions, I have identified four examples.
    IF this clock is by Germania the serial number would indicate manufacture in 1894 and the logo (G R = Germania Regulatorfabrik?) could be what was used between the "Genossensch Germania Freiburg i/Schles" stamp and the "RG Eagle/Anchor/Clockwheel" logo.

    Tarant, if you have other clocks with serial number data, this same logo, and photos it will be very much appreciated for you to post those here for comparison. It would be quite interesting to see if those clocks also have serial numbers between 175,000 and 210,000 and the same physical characteristics as the clock posted here, which I believe could confirm they were made by Germania.
     
  49. Gottis

    Gottis Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    Thanks for the humblest of all your help very interesting
     
  50. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: G R help

    Mikrolisks website lists both "Germania Regulator" and
    "Regulatorfabrik Germania", wheras the Lexikon only has
    the latter. But, the author does describe an oval logo with
    an "Anker" and the letters RG.
    Now, the problem is, the word "Anker" in German can mean a ship's
    anchor, or, in the other case, escapement pallets, depending on the
    context of use.
    The "regular" Germania anchor + eagle logo is shown, however.
    Perhaps we do have a missing link here.
    Jurgen
     

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