German Clock

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by Jay, Sep 28, 2011.

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  1. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    #1 Jay, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
    I bought this clock a few days ago and wonder if anyone knows the maker.
    It has the label which is a Lion Crest with the initials P.B. and Shutzmarke.
    I am sure it is German in origin but would like to know the maker.

    TIA

    Jay
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Here is a photo of the label.
     

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  2. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Hello Jay,

    It would help if you would remove the bell and take a photo of the entire label. This will probably enable someone to tell you who the maker is.

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  3. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    #3 Jay, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2011
    Richard,
    Thanks-- I thought of that later this afternoon.. will post a photo without the bell.
    regards,
    Jay
     
  4. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    #4 Jay, Sep 28, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2011
    Not the best photo-- I will post others when I get to a better camera.
    The Trademark is a Castle with Turrett and the lower depicts 4 flags flying on top of the tower. There are waves at the bottom of the tower wall and perhaps the sail of two ships to the side of the castle?

    I don't know where I got the Lion biz in the first post----- too many hours today!

    Jay
     

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  5. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Thanks but I can't see anything for the reflection of the flash. The flash needs to be at an angle to the label when taking the photo.

    Maybe someone can recognize it from the description.

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  6. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
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    Greetings Jay,

    show us the movement, too!

    albra
     
  7. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    Greets Albra,

    I hope it's not a Timex:???:
     

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  8. tom427cid

    tom427cid Registered User
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    Hi,
    I believe that Shutzmarke,or such-excuse spelling,was a co-operative in Silesia and produced some very nice clocks(at least the ones I've seen).
    IMHO I think that the quality is every bit as good as GB.Most of the ones that I have run into were wall clocks.
    tom
     
  9. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Schutzmarke is German for trademark.
     
  10. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Jay,

    there was no facturer of clocks in American-style around 1900 in Germany with the letters "P-B". Thus I assume, the TM of your clock belonged to a trading company but not to a facturer of clocks. (Jay, are there any letters on the ship, or does the ship has a name on the logo??)

    Show us some photos of the movement- may be we recognize the facturer.


    albra
     
  11. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    Albra,
    Here you are....
     

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  12. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    The movement reminds me somewhat of Philipp Haas and Sons, but that's just a guess.
     
  13. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    Steven---
    You know that we have been told that Haas did not make any brass movements prior to the early 1900's. So this must be a Waterbury also
    masquerading as a German clock complete with the Schutzmark(e).
    Those German clock-makers were clever fellows!!:rolleyes:

    Jay
     
  14. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    I missed the memo. The movement I was reminded of is the attached (from a mini cottage clock), but perhaps the differences outweigh any similarities.
     
  15. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    Steven,
    I agree that the movement does look very much like the Haas clock you
    referenced in your photo.

    There no makers marks on the movement.
    Perhaps Jurgen or Albra or Andreas can shed some light on the clock or maker?


    Jay
     
  16. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Jay--

    Who said that PHS didn't make any brass movements before 1900? I must have missed it :).

    Zep
     
  17. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    zep,

    Greetings Jay and all,

    I don´t know, whether your movement was made by PHS or not. May be, it is just similar to a movement of Waterbury. On the other hand I know a movement very similar to Seth Thomas, but also stamped PHS. This clock also was made pre 1900, too.

    May be PHS dindn´t produce metal-movements pre 1900 but bought movements pre 1900 in America:???:? We don´t know yet.

    Jay- please show your movement to an expert of Waterbury-movements.

    Regards,

    albra


    zep,
    Perhaps I misconstrued these remarks? I am interested in the matter since I have several P Haas clocks. When Albra broached the subject he stated that Haas was an anomaly among German clockmakers.
    For more please see my post about P Haas clock from earlier in the week.

    Due to that post I was lamenting the fact that my Geman clocks;indeed both of my newest clocks were really using Waterbury movements??
    You may consider me "confused" :confused:
     
  18. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Jay,

    very interesting. This is the 3. movement of a Cottage-clock within some days on this board.

    This movement in my eyes has has the oldest form of an stamped American brass movement. All early German clock facturers with stamped movements in American style made very similar movements, and even several American facturers, too.

    Give us the meassures of the movement- may be I can tell you the facturer. I don´t know the facturer yet, but propably not PHS ;-)

    albra
     
  19. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Have to agree with Zep . . . from info I've seen PHS made perhaps a few hundred thousand brass movements before 1900. What source said they didn't, would be interested to know?

    Jay, your movement appears a lot more PHS than it does Waterbury although Albra could be correct it isn't a PHS either. Also, although there "were" a lot of brass American movements exported to Europe before 1900, the info I've seen indicates the huge majority went to England and not to Germany or other countries on the continent. PHS were a very high volume manufacturer in the last quarter 19th century and would have little or no reason to import American movements for their clocks.
     
  20. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Jay --

    It's not as if we don't know quite a bit about Philipp Haas & Söhne. And there is no indication that I've ever heard of that they were buying movements in the US, from Waterbury or anyone else.

    Rather, in the early stages of the German factories that were making Amerikaneruhren (understood to mean American-style movements by American methods) all of the German factories very directly imitated American models. Or at least as much as they could.

    A continuing problem here however is that you need horological researchers who are very familiar with both the American originals and the German imitations. Or if it sounds better, "adaptions." These researchers are hard to find in fact. E. John Tyler is one of the very few who qualifies.

    And in fact Tyler over 30 years ago specified in both his (1977) Black Forest Clocks and his (1981) American Clocks for the Collector an entire set of features -- 16 in one case -- that help to differentiate the German imitations from the American originals. PHS movements are specifically mentioned.

    Both volumes BTW are available through the NAWCC's Library & Research Center.

    I've also asked for example Chris Bailey to note features that someone who mainly sees German clocks might not note. These were included in an article, "American-German: How the Germans Made American Clocks" in the April 2011 issue of CLOCKS magazine. Among those features usually not noted are, for example, that the German alarm setting disk is usually "solid" and has those bumps around the edge.

    The point here however:) is that this is not unploughed earth. Berthold Schaaf (2008) in the standard work Schwarzwalduhren refers to a PHS catalogue from 1880 that has Amerikaneruhren. And PHS offered the Teutonia catalogue at the same time that had "altogether 116 table and wall clocks..." with American-type movements.

    Then too, there are observers from the era who knew what firms were making when. Karl Kalschschmidt (1895) gets quoted on developments in St. Georgen, for instance, because, well, he knew about them. And he has PHS starting to manufacture its own clocks and materials as early as 1867. And we know that between then and 1880 they ended up being able to make 116 different clocks of the Amerikaneruhr type.

    As far as which geographical areas were of interest, yes, the UK was the prime market for the Germans. Yet the first area that was "fought over," according to one German source (Köhler), between the American exporters and the German Amerikaneruhren factories such as Junghans, was the northern European countries, including the northern German states.

    K states that Junghans first started to sell its Amerikaneruhren in the northern German states because they were already used to American (American) clocks. This matter is also quoted in this article, as elsewhere.

    In short, there is quite a bit of information about these early developments. But very little of it will be found outside of the literature.

    Zepernick
     
  21. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Just to keep the record clear, Albra's previous statement regarding PHS possible use of American-made movements is in this thread, particularly on page 2. Some interesting notions there, e.g., his link to another thread about a PHS movement with similarities to a Seth Thomas movement. I believe the ST movement Albra means is one of the mini cottage movements of which ST made several kinds, in particular the so-called "E," "F," or "G" movements (using the designations in Tran's ST Cottage Clock section.)
     
  22. Jay

    Jay Registered User

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    Zep and John,
    Thanks for the information. I do value and appreciate your opinions.
    Thanks also to Steven for the link to the prior posting.

    regards,
    Jay
     

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