George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any info

b.pelletier207

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Sep 11, 2012
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George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel 18 size Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any info on this movement. It was in a 14K gold case with the inscription "from PA to Truman", which is a whole other search. The watch may be a gift from Hemmingway "PA" to President Truman doing research on that part. I could not find any info in the watch books I have.

Thanks
Brian
 

Tom Huber

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Brian, What do you mean it "was" in a 14K case. I hope the case hasn't been melted.

Any way, we med clear sharp pix of the movement both dial side and plate side. Pix of the case would be great too.

Tom
 

4thdimension

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Hello Brian, Welcome! As Tom said, a picture would be very helpful for identification. Your description is puzzling for a Waltham watch. The George Neal name may indicate it was a "private label" made for an individual or retailer. The 22 diamond and ruby jewels is especially tantalizing.
It would strike me as bizarre for a "Pa" to refer to his son by his last name so a presidential association would seem a longshot . Perhaps Truman Capote :)?
Folks here are a bit jumpy about case melting these days, sorry about that.
Again, we love pics and are curious what you have . If you give us the serial number from the movement we can give you a lot of info too.-Cort
 

richiec

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

sounds to me as if he doesn't have the watch but just wants some information.
 

John Cote

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

If the case is gone it really doesn't much matter what the case said on it anyway.
 

b.pelletier207

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Here are the pictures, and yes I have the watch and case.
Thanks for the warm welcoming Tom & Cort.

Thanks
Brian DSC_8757_p1.jpg DSC_8756_p1.jpg DSC_8752_p1.jpg DSC_8753_p1.jpg DSC_8754_p1.jpg DSC_8755_p1.jpg
 

ben_hutcherson

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

WOW!

That's a really, really interesting watch and not something that I'm sure I've ever seen before. Just a couple of quick comments on it:

1. The movement comes from a run P.S. Bartlett movements. The P.S. Bartlett is a decidedly mid-grade movement, and the overall finish on this is much better than I ever recall seeing on a Bartlett grade movement. The gold jewel settings are not generally seen on PS Bartletts. The regulator star and arm look like Crescent St. grade parts to me, and the balance wheel appears to be much better finished than I've seen on Crescent Sts.

2. The movement notes that it is 22 diamond and ruby jewels. The photo that you show appears to agree with this jewel count, as well as the fact that the cap stones on the balance, pallet fork, and escape wheel appear to be diamonds.

1883 model Walthams typically don't have more than 17 jewels, and the best known examples of 21j movements are nowhere near this well finished(the 21j ones are usually considered to be mid-grade watches). Of particular interest is the jewel set in gold on the barrel bridge. This brings the count up to 22, and is something that I don't EVER recall seeing on a Waltham watch.

3. The damaskeen pattern is not familiar to me on an 1883 model, although there are some references on these which I don't have present at the moment that might be revealing.

Your watch is definitely is not a standard factory production piece. This is purely speculation on my part, but I wonder if the movement is an employee watch.

If this watch is in fact an employee special, I wonder if perhaps the inscription was simply a father("Pa") gifting the watch to his son named Truman :)
 

Tom McIntyre

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

The watch appears to be an "employee special" watch finished by a Waltham employee for his own satisfaction. This was a well known practice at Waltham and dates all the way back to the Marsh Brothers and D. B. Fitts finished examples of the Howard, Davis & Dennison 8 day watch as the company was just starting.

It is a very nice looking example. I would not spend a lot of time looking for name matches outside of Waltham.

I will add some other examples to the thread if it moves in that direction.

... I see that Ben and I were typing at the same time.
 
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4thdimension

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Thank you for posting the pics. That is a very special movement! It will take some research to figure out what you have because I, for one, haven't seen one like it before; not the 22 diamond and ruby jewels marking on a model '83, nor the reprofiling of the barrel bridge. The watch is simply beautiful and the case is gorgeous as well. The Waltham serial number look-up site describes your watch as a 15 jewel "P.S. Bartlett" grade so obviously some research is needed. Could the be a watch reworked at the factory or by a private watchmaker? I can't say but I lean toward factory work because of the inscriptions. I hope some of the resident authorities get on this to solve the mysteries soon.
Meanwhile Congratulations on a remarkable Waltham!
-Cort
p.s. Hah! We're all writing at once :) . I knew this one would raise eyebrows.
 

ben_hutcherson

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

I need to correct my earlier comment about this not being a Crescent St. grade balance wheel.

I have a decent sized hoard/collection of 1883 model Crescent St. grade watches, and the one I checked in the 6-million serial number before writing my above post had balance wheel that was not very nicely finished. I checked a couple in the 3-4 million range(where yours lies) and all of them DO have the nicely beveled and polished arms on the balance wheel(maybe the later one I checked has an unoriginal balance wheel-I'll have to check it out later). So, in any case, it appears that many of the parts on your watch have been upgraded to Crescent St. grade.

And, I'm glad to see that Tom also thought it is an employee's watch.
 

b.pelletier207

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Thank you for your replies, I look forward to more comments.
Thanks
Brian
 

Phil7153

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

This is a nice looking watch, I am looking forward to see the comments.

On the funny side, the title of this thread made me laugh "George Neal 22 Diamond"
 

Tom McIntyre

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

I picked up an interesting Employee Watch about a year ago and was prompted together a PowerPoint presentation for The Boston Watch & Clock Club. I just uploaded the slides as an article under "Hot Topics." Here is the link if you want to see the sort of thing produced at Waltham from various starting materials. https://mb.nawcc.org/content.php?35-The-Employee-s-Own-Watch
 

John Cote

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

I will just make this comment. Keep the watch whole...case and all. There is no way that this watch is not worth more as a watch than the gold in the case is worth as gold. It may not prove to be a hit the jackpot museum piece (or maybe it will) but it is cool enough to save as a complete watch. Also, I think you are correct that people here jumped all over you about the case without knowing what was going on. Don't worry about that....we are just a bunch of weirdos with nothing better to do.
 

richiec

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Who's a wierdo? Cuckoo, cuckoo. Just looked at the past tense word, 'was' and jumped to an unwarranted conclusion, my bad. Just goes to show you, don't make assumptions. Wonder who Truman was, Jim Carey?. Just joking again. Don't take me too seriously, love to have fun. Have a full subscription to Ancestry so can look up most people.
 

Bryan Eyring

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thank you for your wonderful photos!

To serious collectors this employee watch has significantly higher value as a complete piece rather than as a movement only (or at least it does to me).

With total production exceeding 5.5 million for this model there is a wide variation of 83's. You may take interest in perusing the 83 models depicted in the attached poster, the full size high res product is available from NAWCC Chapter 149 for a nominal fee. The pieces illustrated in this poster are each special in their own way, which was the beauty of so many of the higher grade 83 models!

The talk of scrap and this watch has me so nervous that I must reiterate, please do NOT scrap the case on this piece, it is a key part of this special watch.

I have also sent you a private message regarding a few other interesting features of this watch.

Thanks again for taking the time to post this fabulous piece!

Best Regards,
Bryan Eyring
bdeyring@hotmail.com
 

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Greg Frauenhoff

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Super neat Waltham! Thanks for sharing it with us on the message board.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

On the topic of employee's specials, here's an Aurora dial made for Frank Balcom. He worked for the Aurora Watch Co. (and later Rockford). It turned up several years ago on that famous internet auction site. It was found as a dial only so I placed it on an appropriate mvt.

img025.jpg
 

Bryan Eyring

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Cool dial, though you may want to straighten your dial feet (seconds bit looks off-center in relation to seconds hand).

I have an Elgin employee special with an interesting case that I will locate and post photos of shortly.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Byran,

As I recall, the dial is actually missing one of its feet. That's probably why it's a little off kilter.

Look forward to seeing your Elgin.

Greg
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Cool dial, though you may want to straighten your dial feet (seconds bit looks off-center in relation to seconds hand).

I have an Elgin employee special with an interesting case that I will locate and post photos of shortly.
Any luck locating your Elgin?
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

Bryan,

Any luck locating your Elgin?

Greg
 

Jeff Hess

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Re: George Neal 22 Diamond and Ruby Jewel Waltham Watch movement.... Looking for any

stunning watch! This is why I love this board!

Jef
 

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