George M Wheeler (AKA G.M. Wheeler) show them off

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by musicguy, Aug 2, 2019.

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  1. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    In circa 2009 I bought one of my sons an Elgin 1885 18s Coin Silver Hunting cased G.M Wheeler,
    the Gentleman's Watch. It was my son's first pocket watch. As seen in the photos
    below and in the 1885 S.F. Meyers & Co. jobbers catalog December 1887 Supplement.
    We were both excited when he got it.

    DSC_6060.JPG DSC_6064.JPG December_Supplemzent[1].jpg



    EDIT till I do more research on George M Wheeler I have removed some information




    Post some of your G.M Wheelers of all sizes.



    Rob
     
  2. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    I love the Wheelers. I've only got two left at the moment. A grade 82gmw 13 jewel Gilt, and a 103 gmw 15 jewel nickel. Both are fantastic movements.

    Nice write up!

    IMG_20190802_191723497.jpg IMG_20190802_191637688.jpg
     
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  3. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    A couple of mine... A grade 57 (left) and a similar and fairly well executed Swiss fake (right).

    Movements.jpg
     
  4. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    There are some really good fakes out there. That barrel bridge is usually the tell. For some reason they just can't get the shape, size and screws just right. The Hairspring stud is also a giveaway, but your fake actually has a close match!
     
  5. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Here's a grade 338gmw 16s model 7 three finger bridge that I had untill recently. Unfortunately i just was never going to take the time to finish it.
    Anyways, nice gold filled engraving, adjusted, and 17 jewels. A far cry from the first G.M. Wheeler grades.

    IMG_20190223_162847341.jpg
     
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  6. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    Thanks, Rob! As a geologist I have long been familiar with the Wheeler surveys, but never connected it with the G.M. Wheeler of the National Watch Co. I am going to have to get one now.
     
  7. Patrick Brady

    Patrick Brady Registered User
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    This is one of my favorites. The uniqueness in the local Ohio connection, magnificent case, transitional key wind/stem wind, and lever set all make for a nice piece. I'm no expert, but here's what I know. Elgin 11 jewel, grade 63, class 4. Labeled J.B. Hudson, Washington Court House, Ohio.

    s-l1600-7.jpg s-l1600-8.jpg s-l1600-12.jpg
     
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  8. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Sorry Jerry,

    I'm having my doubts that maybe I made a mistake with George M. Wheeler(cartographer) he
    would have been 22 in 1864. I think the wikipedia might be wrong(or linked wrong)?
    I think it's a different G.M. Wheeler.

    It needs more research....


    I think I may need to edit the first post.(I'm going to remove the info till I'm sure)

    Rob
     
  9. Jskirk

    Jskirk Registered User

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    Here is the one I have in a nice Essex columbia case.

    20190407_145238.jpg 20190407_150036.jpg
     
  10. Dave Coatsworth

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    Here's another from a G. M. Wheeler run. Grade '57 labelled the 'California Watch'.

    Elgin115282Case.jpg Elgin115282Dial.jpg Elgin115282Mvmt.jpg
     
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  11. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Here is a (maybe original side winder) 1885 grade 82 in a 4oz coin case
    (it's been serviced since this photo and the regulator is back on the
    traveling nut) And it now has matching hands.(I really should take some new photos)


    3. 1885(not serviced) Elgin Pocket Watch Hunter 18s PW LS  15J.jpg 7. 1885(not serviced) Elgin Pocket Watch Hunter 18s PW LS  15J.jpg


    Rob
     
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  12. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Here is another Grade 57 like Dave's above
    I have posted this one already(in another thread) I guess it has the wrong dial
    and should have a notional dial(based on it's serial number).

    gm wheeler.jpg gm wheelert.jpg


    Rob
     
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  13. Rick Hufnagel

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    #13 Rick Hufnagel, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019

    Thanks for sharing that Rob. It's from the run 1630001-1645000 that I think at this point may be the first run of 15 jewel grade 82. From collected serials and examples, it's looking to be true. It's a mixed run of 13 and 15 jewel, and oddly enough is the earliest I've seen a patent regulator on a grade 82 as well.

    The grade 82 is an interesting movement. It started as a 13 jewel series 2. The first 4 runs totaling 8000 serial numbers make up the series 2.

    At 874001 it becomes a series 3. The difference being the keyless works used in the two models.

    There may be some model overlap in the 874001 run. I have not been able to confirm yet. It's listed as series 3d in the 1896 grade list.


    The hardest one to find I think, would be a 13 jewel with a patent regulator! At this point I'm figuring only one run, mixed with 15 jewel movements, has this configuration.
     
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  14. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    They do appear to be two different G.M. Wheelers. George Montague Wheeler, the engineer and surveyor, graduated from West Point in 1866 and hence was unlikely to be an Elgin Director in 1865.
     
  15. diveboy

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  16. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Circa 1910 12 size grade 347 marked adjusted in two places
    (and plate #'s match)....it's double adjusted;)


    IMG_0426.jpg IMG_7051.jpg v.jpg



    Rob
     
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  17. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Here are my two running Wheelers, representing the first and last GM Wheeler grades - ~ 1871 GM Wheeler grade, 135251, 18s, 11j; and ~1926 Grade 452, 28598350, 12s, 17j, made 55 years apart.


    IMG_2129.jpg

    IMG_2132.jpg
     
  18. PW Collector

    PW Collector Registered User

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    I'm not sure if the dial & hands are correct for mine.
    Dial is: National Watch Co.
    Movement is marked: California Watch
    It is a lift-out movement in a case marked GEM 101517
    The Elgin Database shows:
    Serial Number 376079
    Name: GMW
    Grade 63 ("Transitional" either keywind or pendant wind)
    Class: 4
    18 size 11-13 jewels
    1875 production year
    It is a lever set (sidewinder) movement.
    Missing housing around keywind arbor.
    Dave

    IMG_1124.JPG IMG_1126.JPG IMG_1127.JPG IMG_1125.JPG
     
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  19. Rick Hufnagel

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    #19 Rick Hufnagel, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
    Oh my gosh it's like a gold mine.

    Dial, no. With series 2, only the very very very earliest MAY have had national dials, but I'm leaning toward no. Even the ones in the 155xxx and earlier are Elgin marked, they were not actually produced untill much later. Serial dating on these is not very accurate.

    Out of more than. A couple dozen recorded, and many more seen in passing, I have 2 national dials. One is Def switched, one is the earliest stemwinder known to me.

    The hands are all over the map. So far the only thing standing out is hh Taylor series 2 with moon hands. But honestly my observations so far, anything goes. I doubt the louis are original, but you never know.

    It's 11 jewel.

    Anyways you and Patrick up above have made my week thank you! Awesome watch!
     
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  20. PW Collector

    PW Collector Registered User

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    Rick, thanks for the info, that the dial is not correct as I suspected. I only have one National Watch Co. dial that I know is correct. It is on a H.Z Culver Grade 62, Model 1, serial number 1731. The case is inscribed:
    Geo. D. Barnard
    From
    HIS FRIENDS
    WITH
    Culver, Page & Hoyne
    NOVEMBER 22ND 1867
    I have it posted somewhere on this forum.
    Dave
     
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  21. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Yes sir! Ive p.m.ed you, but in case anyone else here is curious, I have one other recorded from this run

    376065. "New England watch co" s.s dial. I couldn't read the private label, but it says San Fransisco above the regulator.

    Unless the new England watch co was in San Fransisco, the dial is suspect. Lol

    Cut out balance cock, rounded barrel bridge with 2 screw key guard, slide lever.
     
  22. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    My Wheelers :)

    Early one from circa 1869-1870:

    wheeler 1.jpg

    And - quite the contrary - two late Wheelers:

    wheeler 2.jpg

    This one recased - tastefully, I suppose:

    wheeler 3.jpg

    And a slim model - originally cased in GF case:

    wheeler 4.jpg

    wheeler 5.jpg

    Sorry, these pics were for pocketwatchdatabase, buty I don't heve better at hand ;)
     
  23. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Very nice!

    I would guess that the very early G.M. Wheeler serial Number 16738 is from circa 1867-1868
    Do you have a photo of the dial side?


    Rob
     
  24. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    wheeler 6.jpg

    NWCo single sunk dial.
     
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  25. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Does anyone have a double sunk National Watch Co. dial? All my Nationals are single sunk.
     
  26. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Yes, but it's on a B.W. Raymond

    0000.01.jpg


    Rob
     
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  27. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    Yes, there is - for example - BWR No 182,499 with d/s NWCo dial once shown by Luis Casillas in his presentation...

    Oh... too late ;)
     
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  28. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    AH! Excellent! I do wonder how many survived, since they're more fragile and harder to fix than single sunk dials, and how many were originally made.

    My BWR, 129194, has a single sunk National dial. My Grade 69 "BWR", 865305, has a double sunk 'Elgin Nat'l Watch Co.' dial.
     
  29. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    How about the GM Wheeler 18s model 5? Grades 44 and 75?? 148?? Anyone have any of them?
     
  30. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Rick I do have a grade 75 but it is a Nameless Grade not marked GMW
    IMG_6135.jpg

    Nameless Grades
    "Up until the mid to late 1870s, Elgin used grade names to keep track of the different
    types of watches they made and had no concept of grade numbers. Around this time,
    Elgin started producing "Nameless" watches, with just the company name on them.
    A few years later, Elgin went back and assigned grade
    numbers to all grades, including the watches that had previously only had a name.
    This is the reason why the very first watch that Elgin produced was a grade 69 instead
    of what you might expect to be called grade number 1. The grade 1 is a nameless
    grade, and was assigned its number before Elgin went back and assigned numbers
    to their named grades."
    (from: The Elgin Watch Collectors Site
    by Wayne Schlitt elginwatches.org
    [ELGIN] Glossary: Serial Number, Grade, Model, Class, etc.)



    Rob
     
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  31. diveboy

    diveboy Registered User
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    This is inaccurate and wrong. Grade 69 or Grade 70 is not Grade BW Raymond, nor is Grade 57 or Grade 63 a Grade GM Wheeler.

    In 1926, Elgin introduced the material cabinet. To simplify part look up, EWNCo grouped grades that shared common parts to a grade number. They didn't go back and renumber existing grades (we as collectors did this.). In 1875 they changed their naming standard for all grades from named grades to numbered grades. Named grades were produced until Run 777 Dexter Street #1,680,001 to #1,682,000.

    further reading Missing Grades – Elgin.Watch
     
  32. rdixiemiller

    rdixiemiller Registered User
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    Here is one of mine, Grade 81, dates to 1885. Really nice 5 oz coin case. The case cuvee was drilled for the key set movement.
    Keeps accurate time.

    20190211_134203.jpg 20190211_134212.jpg 20190211_134238.jpg
     
  33. Mike M.

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    #33 Mike M., Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
    Here‘s an unusual grade 368, 18s, 3/4 plate, hunter movement that I picked up a few years back. I originally hoped to find a nice case for it, but with things the way they are, it now resides in my parts drawer.

    B9F6E474-BDC7-4D3C-8F77-2C05E1116477.jpeg 965DC629-FC14-474B-85C6-28E44BA9224C.jpeg
     
  34. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    Great one :) !!!
     
  35. Rick Hufnagel

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    Series 2 G.M. Wheeler 255479

    11 jewel, slow train, slide lever set. Most interesting part is that barrel bridge!

    Single sunk ENWCO dial, spade hands. From a run of only 90 serial #s, so it's an exciting addition!

    IMG_20190811_180033140.jpg
     
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  36. Rick Hufnagel

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    12 size, model 3, grade 347 marked for G.M. Wheeler!

    Pwdb says 1911, with 20,000 produced between 1906 and 1917

    This is one pretty movement. Nice stripe damaskeen, raised jewel settings, decorated ratchet and crown wheels. It's in a very nice 25yr smooth Philadelphia case with a long pendant. Just a really nice watch.

    Have a good day!

    IMG_20190830_163419603.jpg IMG_20190830_163457460.jpg IMG_20190830_163311275.jpg IMG_20190830_163245021.jpg
     
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  37. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Nice Rick I like these! I posted one too in post #16


    Rob
     
  38. Rick Hufnagel

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    #38 Rick Hufnagel, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    Awesome! Thanks Rob. Yes, you and Jerry T often show such nice 12s and smaller movements, I had decided on a few smaller watches to keep a lookout for, this being one of them!

    This watch will most likely be stolen by child#2 anytime he wears his suit, lol. I've already been warned.
     
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  39. Rick Hufnagel

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    So I really thought the plates would come out looking better on this one, but it's a solid watch, keeping A+ time and is also my earliest National now. The dial came out looking pretty good after a major battle with the seconds bit, and overall I like it. The case is an awesome 4oz dueber anchor in shield case, the screw marks line up, but I'm not convinced of it's originality.

    So this is G.M. Wheeler, # 44453.

    IMG_20190915_124141983.jpg IMG_20190915_124028018.jpg
     
  40. RMUST

    RMUST Registered User

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    Here is one of mine

    IMG_5019.JPG IMG_5020.JPG IMG_5021.JPG
     
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  41. Rick Hufnagel

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    This is a later G.M. Wheeler grade from a run of 2000. It is an interesting piece because it sports the rounded off barrel bridge, and it's still 11 jewels and 16,200 bph.

    Now this was a total rescue, it came bare, with another movement I really wanted and I expected it to sit in the parts bin forever... But it turned out to be in good shape mechanically. From my observations, the dial is correct. The hands were a bent up mess so they were a rescue as well and turned out ok.

    All in all I think it does a good job of showing the end of the line for the original G.M. Wheeler.

    IMG_20191025_071836559.jpg IMG_20191025_071720454.jpg IMG_20191018_161742763.jpg
     
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  42. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Here are some ads to go along your Wheelers:

    1907_Aug_The_Favorite_Elgin_GMW.jpg 1907_Jul_The_Elgin_Era_GMW.jpg 1907_Jun_Elgin_In_Particular_GMW.jpg 1907_May_Elgin_Watch_Satisfaction_GMW.jpg 1907_Sep_A_Famous_Elgin_GMW.jpg 1907_Aug_07.jpg 1907_Aug_14.jpg 1907_Aug_21.jpg 1907_Aug_28.jpg 1907_Sep_04.jpg 1910_Sep-13_Elgin_GMW_Farmers_Watch.jpg
     
  43. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Apparently you don't really need an expensive chronometer if you've got a G.M. Wheeler:

    1915_Dec_Elgin_15_Seconds_From_Shanghai.jpg
     
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  44. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Ha, on only one trip in 14 years did it happen to do that well! That's not high praise is it?
     
  45. NewBernWatchmaker

    NewBernWatchmaker Registered User

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    Only one cased up

    4A8CDA43-BBEF-4D51-B363-829E933E7310.jpeg 32E838D5-77CA-42EE-94D9-42AE5B015C30.jpeg
     
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