Geo Rose of London clock maker

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by THTanner, Feb 6, 2019.

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  1. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I am looking at a private sale of a Geo Rose of London clock

    I have found some information about Rose, but have not been able to pin down exactly where in the UK he had his factory and for what years.

    Does anyone have a good link to this maker?

    thanks
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    The only george in my books was in Inverary.

    You could help by giving us an idea of the clock so we know what century to look in.
     
  3. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I have no permission to use a photo yet, but it is 19th - has a rocking ship over the dial, old finely cut brass dial with 31 day calendar below the 12 and days of the week above the six. - dual weights - time and strike on a bell - English long case - the dial is huge 13 1/2 x 18 -

    oooops - I see it is now listed on eBay - I guess I waited too long to respond
     
  4. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    That is a fine clock, but in my limited experience it is quite unusual for a London clock (size, four pillar construction, rocking ship, day of the week indicator). I wonder if the name has been added later, or a chapter ring swapped over.
     
  5. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    I also questioned the sub dials. The clock has a lot of issues especially the under dial work.
     
  6. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I don't think we are supposed to discuss an active auction -
    it was not at auction when I first asked about it
    I appreciate the responses but perhaps a moderator can step in and clarify or freeze the post??
     
  7. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Imho there are severel tell tales...............
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I can't see this clock so have no idea what you are all talking about.
     
  9. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    You need to look in the USA - I found it there.

    JTD
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Ah, well that's a bit of an oddball.
     
  11. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    What is?

    JTD
     
  12. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    The clock we are not discussing
     
  13. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Steven T suspended the thread for me until the auction was over then restored it.

    The history on this is that the seller had made contact with me before putting it on eBay and asked if I was interested in buying the movement and the dial. It looked a bit "off" to me and I could find nothing about Geo Rose of London. My searching on Google showed that this clock - complete in a 94 inch case - had sold at auction in April 2018 for 1400 plus auction fee and shipping, but gave no information about Rose. It was clearly the same dial with the same damage to the ship paint and missing the calendar bit.

    When I asked the seller about the complete clock he said it was a terrible marriage and he was parting it out. The dial and the movement didn't seem to match well since the calendar post was bent down a bit to meet the hole in the dial - as well as other issues. I made him an offer on the movement only. It was at that point that I posted my question here about any history on Rose to see if the dial was worth considering anyway. About the time I finished the post here I got notice that he would not sell them separately and it was posted on eBay. That was a good decision because it sold for far more than I had offered for the movement.

    I still cannot find much of anything about Rose. My reason for asking originally was, assuming the dial really is from 18xx, would you have someone restore the paint to the ship or would you leave a dial like this alone with the damage?

    s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg s-l1600 (4).jpg s-l1600.jpg
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I still have many questions about it, and a high price on ebay does not mean they are answered. As to the automaton painting, I think at the very least stabilised, but a really good dial restorer could make improvements.
     
  15. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    $700 USD doesn't seem like a lot of money for such an insert. If it is right of course....wrong, too much money. But, from the photos is looks pretty good. The seller in this case is a very well known clock dealer who deals in some of the best American clocks. So, I suspect he would have been more than happy to give a completely accurate inspection report, but too late now.
     
  16. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    he is definitely a fine dealer and no problem there. I just could not get my head around this setup fast enough to make a proper offer.
     
  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    He may deal in the very best American clocks, but that doesn't make him an expert on London longcase.
     
  18. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    I didn't know I suggested he was an expert on London clocks. He is certainly an expert on American clocks, an author of several books on clocks, has bought and sold hundreds if not thousands of tall clocks, and I suggest he is able to ascertain if things belong together or not, no matter of country of origin. And for that matter, some fair percentage of so-called American clocks were made in England or thereabouts. So, we are not completely ignorant about all clocks from the far side of the pond.
     
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  19. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I am curious if you agree with me, from the pictures, that the calendar post looks to be bent down a bit to accommodate the hole in the dial? This is not any disagreement, but it was the apparent tilt of the post and calendar gear that led me to back off on considering the combination. Perhaps I missed out on a good deal. I have a little experience with English tall case, but not enough to pay up when in doubt.
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I suggest you read the description of one of the clocks on their website and reconsider. Wrong century, wrong period, just wrong.
     
  21. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    Did anyone see the advert for this particular movement? I would suggest that any advert from a clock dealer, where they use the word "steampunk" in defining what you might want to do with a clock movement they are selling, is probably a sign that they know what they are selling, and it isn't in their opinion all that valuable. At least, that is the way I read it.
     
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  22. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    My goodness, a typo that says 17th century when the clock is obviously 18th century. Just horrible, obviously these folks know nothing about clocks.
     
  23. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    It also says mid century and Queen Anne. Whichever century you choose Queen Anne wasn't there in any of them. It clearly is not a Queen Anne clock either, and that's quite a lot of typo.
     
  24. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Really now? From that always correct website en.wikipedia.org.....
    "The Queen Anne style began to evolve during the reign of William III of England (1689-1702), but the term predominantly describes decorative styles from the mid-1720s to around 1760, although Queen Anne reigned earlier (1702-1714). "The name 'Queen Anne' was first applied to the style more than a century after it was fashionable." The use of Queen Anne styles in America, beginning in the 1720s and 1730s, coincided with new colonial prosperity and increased immigration of skilled British craftsmen to the colonies."

    Not my words.

    And more :
    Furniture crafted in the Queen Anne style dates from the 1720s to approximately 1750 in England, although the ruler it is named after died in 1714. In the United States production ran longer, right up to 1800 or so. This ever-popular style falls within the Colonial period.


    Furniture made in the Queen Anne style is often difficult to date exactly since it sometimes blends elements from the earlier William and Mary and later Chippendale styles, according to American Furniture: Tables, Chairs, Sofas and Beds by Marvin D. Schwartz. Queen Anne is lighter and less chunky in appearance in comparison to earlier furniture, exhibiting a change in taste in the early 1700s.
     
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  25. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Fascinating - all things considered - I am glad I dodged some As-Is Queen Anne Steampunk - but who the heck was Geo. Rose of London ?
     
  26. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    That clock has multiple red flags. I'd be very surprised if it was original.

    THTanner consider yourself lucky you didn't buy it!
     
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  27. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    George Rose was either an unrecorded maker/retailer, or the invention of an engraver who was involved in putting this assembly or parts together. Unless another genuine George Rose, London clock appears, it is unlikely we will know...
     
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  28. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Hi Jim,

    I think you might find there is a different interpretation or use of the term Queen Anne on either side of the pond that separates USA and UK.

    You are quoting the American definition whereas Nick is referring to how the term is generally applied in the UK.

    Neither is wrong, just different....

    Regards
    Dean
     
  29. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I came across this reference to a 77.5 inch tall "Long Case Clock by George Rose Newport Pagnell. Buckinghamshire - George III Oak Case -30 hour plated movement - c. 1800 with this dial - but no other information - there was a George Rose of London who was a solicitor and Member of Parliament about that time frame, but it is probably a common name

    Longcase Clock by George Rose Newport Pagnell Buckinghamshire

    george-rose-longcase-clock-4x.jpg
     
  30. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Yes, what we clearly have is an expert in Americanisms, and now a quote from an American website. We use the Monarchs as dates, particularly with regard to clocks, and if not doing so we say style. This is mostly true of furniture in antique furniture, because the styles were not so closely defined and dating is much harder. Dating late 17th and early 18th century clocks, particularly London, is much more defined. Fashions were strictly followed, and often relatively short lived. It means that we can date to within 10 years usually, less so with provincial clocks and less so with later clocks but still with reasonable expection of within 20 years or so.

    However nobody would call an arched dial Queen Anne style, because it simply isn't.

    So, I state again, the man is quite clearly no expert when it comes to London clocks, but as Zedric says he never seems to have suggested that the clock was correct, that seems to have been laid on him by Jim. I only have evidence he doesn't know his Anne from his elbow.

    The Rose, however, does not look correct and I agree with Dean, THT dodged a bullet there.
     
  31. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Hmm, I mentioned tell tales. Since this thread is getting more and more interesting............... Here are my thoughts for what its worth. The engraving of the dial does not meet the normal standard high quality London engraving, subdials are wrong, hands are wrong, crude visible rivets are wrong for a London clock, spandrels are from much earlier period the the rocking ship feature, movement has been tampered with (modified), movement is not London make. So as a furniture piece, perhaps yes to some people, but not of any interest to own by any serious collector. One thing I know about highly respected dealers is that even they sometimes sell wrong for right as I experienced myselve.
     
  32. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Peter,

    However exalted an expert may be, if that expertise isn't tempered by a little humility and continued openness to learning from their own and others' experiences and observations, their pronouncements remain suspect.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  33. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Pretty much my thoughts...did you also notice the barrels had no grooves. American made movement?
     
  34. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    You could add the engraving to the dial centre is not a London feature, and the engraving around the arch, if extending to the bottom of the arch, should continue around the dial.. but I think there are plenty enough clues if you know what you are looking for.
     
  35. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Graham, thanks for your remark. I noticed on fairs etc, when a clock with a paper pasted inside from a very well known dealer, people often think or being told; "this clock must be 100% original because it once belonged to mr...en sold by him." To be honest, in the past I also thought this was a garantee for a good clock. Over the years I have seen quite often the opposite. So what I was trying to say, buying from a wellknown dealer does not allways mean you bought a genuine clock. I personally found out that it can be quite hard convincing the wellknown dealer aka seller that a clock is not good, after all he is the man with all the knowledge. I think when a serious amateur collector who only collects say for example English brackets clocks and he does his own research for many years on those kind of clocks, he has mostly more knowledge on that subject then a wellknown dealer who deals in all kind of antique clocks.
     
  36. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Yep, thats one of the reason I stated the movement is not London make.
     
  37. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Even given our backway ways over here, I note there is not much to suggest the subject insert was London made. I fully agree with the previous comments about the quality of the engraving, the mismash of chapter ring, cal bit, day bit, smooth barrels etc. Then there is the overall look of the whole assembly that suggests it is a creation from well outside formal London clockmaking circles. It is imprecise in execution of details on the movement, very sloppy, the backside of the dial looks more like rolled or at least 19th century brass than I like to see in a period piece, on and on. I said originally I liked it over all but I also commented it was cheap if it was right but overpriced if wrong. I personally think it to be wrong in many ways and I would not want to own it at all. That was why I did not bid on it when it came up for auction.

    Regards experts, I stated the seller was an expert on AMERICAN clocks, not English clocks, and he is. I also suggested that he would most likely have been happy to tell prospective bidders on ebay what he thought was right and wrong with the Rose insert, but since it was already sold that was not an option. I have known him for many years and while we don't agree on everything he is always willing to share openly what he thinks, rightly or wrongly.

    And regards the wrong information on the website regarding 17th vs 18th century, I have been in contact with the owner of the clock and he says, "yes, typo, thanks for letting me know." And we do follow the American version of defining periods of clocks, archtecture, and furniture etc. It seems to make sense to me. If our view of the world was from elsewhere it might also be from that other perspective. And I appreciate most of the people in this discussion follow a bit different set of definitions than we do here. DeanT, you are right on the money on that.

    The owner of the "17th century Queen Anne" asks; so what's the big deal here ? My response; "nothing to concern yourself with....just us kids behaving badly!"
     
  38. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I didn't go down that road because it seems opinion on here is always that you get English clocks with smooth barrels. Personally I have never seen one, but in provincial clocks never say never. In London clocks, though, has anybody ever seen one? Particular a London clock the age this should be? Even if we assume it was once a square dial and all of this automata stuff was added later the original would still have been late enough to bepretty standard in that respect. There is just so much wrong with what this clock purports to be I'm not surprised that it was put to ebay rather than sold through their website. People will literally buy anything on ebay and the price paid can be quite unfathomable.

    I can see somebody wanting this because it is a fun clock, but as Peter says, it isn't what a serious collector would buy.

    I have a clock that once had an automata added, fortunately little damage was done by it and it has been removed. They are always an attractive feature for people and raise the interest and value of a clock. That can lead to them being added. The painting on this looks good, I can't say which bits are old and which bits are young, I can only say that to me it does not look original and appears to have been made up at least in part.
     
  39. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I'm sorry, but calling something Queen Anne is just a way of making it sound older and more impressive than it is. To call something Queen Anne style when it clearly has a style that came significantly later is sharp practice.

    oh, and while you may now be saying you never suggested it was correct that wasn't what you said.

     
  40. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    hmm novice, and where in your world does saying something "looks pretty good" constitute saying it is correct? It doesn't around here. I stand by "It looks pretty good." It isn't IMO saying it to be correct. If I had thought it correct I would have said so. I thought about what I wrote before hitting the post key. There is a vast and wide range of difference between those two points here. And by the way, the one person who did ask me offline while this auction was underway received my recommendation to avoid it, for some of the reasons I have cited and some you all cited.

    Now that the auction is done we can kibitz it top to bottom and as stated earlier I am in agreement with the several anomalies noted by yourself and others. And I never appraise a clock from photos. I readily concede I know little about earlier period English clocks. We see very few of them in the states. I yield to your extensive knowledge, the several of you are to be congratulated on your willingness to share, to research, and to offer assistance on these clocks.
     
  41. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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  42. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    That's possible, but doesn't explain a lot of the problems with this particular clock.
     
  43. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Yes - this particular combination of whatevers seems a bit off the mark
     

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