Gents & Co Leicester Pulsynetic Time: Worth Acquiring?

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by prideofmatchingham, Sep 19, 2013.

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  1. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    In the flea market I saw this Gents & Co Leicester Pulsynetic Time clock and was wondering if it could be acquired and kept or acquired and sold for a profit, if possible? IfI do take it, it would be my first electric clock. Basically I am averse to Electric clocks and in that case I might as well stop being partial to mechanical clocks and watches!

    Anyway,here are the photos

    2013-09-17 12.06.34.jpg 2013-09-17 12.07.14.jpg 2013-09-17 12.08.13.jpg 2013-09-17 12.09.32.jpg 2013-09-17 12.09.51.jpg 2013-09-17 12.10.08.jpg 2013-09-17 12.10.15.jpg 2013-09-17 12.11.19.jpg

    (The guy in second picture is not me but someone who held the pendulum for me.)

    Request forum if this is a collectible piece. Strange story being given by the seller was that it was a cuckoo clock which managed 'many cuckoo slaves'! However I am not able to fathom anything.

    POM
     
  2. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    I have moved this the the Electric Horology forum where it properly belongs and will receive better exposure.
     
  3. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    The Gent's, Gents' and Gent master time transmitters are, when properly mounted on a substantial wall, extremely accurate time transmitters. (master clock)

    It is unusual that the pendulum rod is round. I have not seen one round; all were, as far as I am aware, a flat rectangular in shape terminating at a round at the cylindrical bob.

    Your example appears to be a very early example and highly collectible to those who admire and appreciate the Gent master clock.

    Please provide the serial number of the clock. It is an important bit of data to those interested.

    The Gent Master can be adjusted to rival the accuracy of the Synchronome Master, a contemporary master clock of the same era.

    Seiral numbe please.
     
  4. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    #4 prideofmatchingham, Sep 20, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
    Hi Eckmill

    Then I think I will go for it and decide what to do with it. But I am sure that there is no truth in what the guy was saying about the cuckoo set up in this. Infact, there is no place for the cuckoo in the body!! Also, it doesnt need to be mounted on the wall as it seems like a floor mounted grandfather clock. Maybe the slaves needed mounting. The rod is sqaure only. See additional photos.

    2013-09-17 12.10.28.jpg IMG-20130920-WA000.jpg IMG-20130920-WA001.jpg IMG-20130920-WA002.jpg IMG-20130920-WA003.jpg IMG-20130920-WA004.jpg IMG-20130920-WA005.jpg IMG-20130920-WA006.jpg IMG-20130920-WA007.jpg IMG-20130920-WA008.jpg

    One number on the lower portion of paper stuck reads something like F 1373. Is that the serial number? One number on top of that paper reads something like 8656.

    Eckmill, can you please throw some light on the cuckoo aspect please?
    POM
     
  5. Hans Vrolijk

    Hans Vrolijk Registered User
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    This Gent clock has nothing to do with the German cuckoo clocks. There are no bellows, nor a bird (maybee a dead one) in this clock. What I see is an extra contact for the second impulses. The resistor on the left is for the half minute slaves, on the right for the seconds slaves. These clocks will run standing on the floor, but this will impair good timekeeping .
     
  6. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Thanks Hans!

    I have solved the mystery of 'cuckoo'!! The 'coil' in vernacular language is pronounced as 'koyal' by unlettered people and 'koyal' means cuckoo. Hence my confusion. Let me see how it looks along my other clocks. Only similarity is the cylindrical pendulum which my Turret clocks have!

    POM
    PS: No dead bird there. Though it indeed is very dirty!
     
  7. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    #7 prideofmatchingham, Oct 5, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
    DSC07576 (1024x768).jpg DSC07577 (1024x768).jpg DSC07578 (1024x768).jpg DSC07579 (1024x768).jpg

    DSC07539 (1024x768).jpg DSC07544 (1024x768).jpg DSC07557 (1024x768).jpg DSC07560 (1024x768).jpg DSC07564 (1024x768).jpg DSC07568 (1024x768).jpg DSC07587 (1024x768).jpg

    Here are the pictures of what is written there on the clock. Serial Number is 8656 dated 28.04.53.
    The parts have been opened by my master clockmaker. However he was wondering about the voltage as that portion has got torn. He was saying that it would be 24 V though he wasn’t sure. I told him I will ask the guys here for the input.
    I have seen Gent’s complete Guide on Hans’ Flickr and would request him for some help on this. And if he can tell me anything more about this clock.
    I also request Hans to tell me if my clock has 'seconds hands' because it is not there as of now but if the feature exists. I saw on his flickr photos one similar Gents with sweep seconds.

    POM
     
  8. itspcb

    itspcb Registered User
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  9. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Thanks a lot itspcb! It was great help!
     
  10. Hans Vrolijk

    Hans Vrolijk Registered User
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    The seconds contact can be seen on your first set of pictures top right. You can see the triangle of the contact, hit by a roller on the pendulum. The door dial has no extra pertinax wheel for the seconds, so just the slave clocks driven by this master could have been equipped with such a device. Because the slaves, driven by this clock, were in series the voltage depends on the number of slaves. The current should be 220 milliAmp and can be regulated by the resistor.
     
  11. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Hi Hans, my Gents is nearing its complete restoration. I dont have any slaves now. So what voltage is to be used? Current you have already advised as 220 milliAmp.

    Will post photos and video once fully functional.
    Thanks
     
  12. Hans Vrolijk

    Hans Vrolijk Registered User
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    A cheap wall socket transformer providing 6-12 V DC 300- 500 milliamps will do.
    Good luck
     
  13. malloy1

    malloy1 Registered User

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    You do have one slave. It's pretty neat to see the later slaves that were made to save money by cutting out the back plate to make most the clock pieces. My Gents' slave is from 1931 and is made with a solid back plate (attached).

    I attached a couple of pictures that you might find interesting.

    How's the clock coming along. Interested in see it when you're done.

    Paul
     
  14. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Thanks Paul.

    Next few days and the photos and video would be here for your and everbody's appraisal.
    Thanks for the photos. Those are useful!
    POM
     
  15. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Need you guys help.

    (Here I am talking like a novice and hence my terminology is layman's terminology.)

    My Gents is up and running without the slave in the dial (I am told that the main clock in dial is the first slave). However when this 'dial clock' was attached, the clock stopped after one and half hour. May I request for the circuit diagram for connecting this to the main clock?

    I hope I have been able to convey what my watchmaker told me!
    Thanks
     
  16. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Indeed.
    Thanks very very much.
    POM
     
  17. malloy1

    malloy1 Registered User

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  18. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Great support there from the fraternity for an ignoramus like me.

    Here is the interim result
    [video=youtube_share;JMjjM2GDsbA]http://youtu.be/JMjjM2GDsbA[/video]

    POM
     
  19. itspcb

    itspcb Registered User
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    That looks a whole lot better, well done!
    Peter
     
  20. malloy1

    malloy1 Registered User

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    It looks great! Thanks for sharing the video.

    Paul
     
  21. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Gents is welcome home! The final output is here. It just needs a beveled glass and keys to its lock, I guess.

    [video=youtube_share;vA9FFCusfk8]http://youtu.be/vA9FFCusfk8[/video]

    Just wanted to ask, every few seconds I find some spark inside. My watchmaker says its OK and normal. Just needed a confirmation.

    Thanks once again for all the help in getting it restored. Its my first electric clock and still feel it slightly incongruous in a house full of mechanical clocks!

    POM
     
  22. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    #23 prideofmatchingham, May 12, 2014
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
    Would request some help on what may be some issue with my Gents C7
    1. Every 30 seconds then the 'arm' is released, there is a spark at the point of contact. Is the spark normal?
    2. Gents manual says it should work at 0.22 amp and 12-22 Volts. My clockmaker says 0.22 Amp doesnt 'magnetise enough' to release the arm. The above video shows my Gents working at roughly 4 Amp and 40 volts. It has been working great at this configuration for last three months. But why is it taking 4 amp and 40 Volts? There are no slaves connected, save for the one dial clock as can be seen in the video.
    3. Will working at this configuration adversely affect the clock?

    Thanks
     
  23. kdf

    kdf Registered User

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    #24 kdf, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
    I'm not familiar with this type of clock, but if it requires 20x higher current to run, it is obvious that something is not in order here. Did you check electromagnet and measure it's resistance? In manual says that resistance should be 33 ohm.
     
  24. Hans Vrolijk

    Hans Vrolijk Registered User
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    The high current can also cause the sparking. Are you sure the spark quenching capacitors in the green boxes in the top of the case are O.K.? A small spark will do no harm but the firework you described will certainly destroy the contact.
     
  25. eskmill

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    #26 eskmill, May 26, 2014
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
    Hans and others are correct, your "watchmaker" is mistaken. A visible spark is not normal and detrimental to the clock and its electrical components.

    You really need to investigate the cause of the spark and eliminate the cause. The first element to investigate is the electromagnets that release the gravity arm. Temporarily disconnect the electromagnets wires then connect an ordinary flashlight dry cell (1.5 volts) to the electromagnets. The magnets should energize with enough strength from the flashlight cell to release the gravity arm quickly with no hesitation. This simple test will prove that the coils (cuckoos) in the electromagnets are sound and not internally short circuited.

    An electrician with an accurate volt-ohm-milliammeter could also test the ohmic resistance of the electromagnets. As others have commented, the DC resistance of the master clock electromagnets should be thirty-three Ohms.

    The Gent, Gent's or Gents and Company master clock system is carefully engineered to be adaptable to provide a system of clock dials of any number within a campus. Each secondary or slave dial mechanism requires the same amount of current, thus the "daisy-chain" or series connection of the battery, master time transmitter, its own pilot dial and any number of secondary or slave dials will operate efficiently from a battery of sufficient voltage. Each element of the system is like the links that form a chain.

    Twenty-four volts DC is or was a common voltage used with telephone systems. Gent and similar master clock systems were all adaptable to the battery voltage used with telephone systems. Most and including Gent's have an adjustable resistor to reduce the voltage so as to provide the recommended current. Gent's is 220 milliamperes or two-tenths of an Ampere.

    If there is one single element that may appear to confuse the ordinary industrial or house electrician is the presence of a small fixed resistor located next to the electromagnets in the back of each slave or secondary dial and including the pilot dial. Said small fixed resistor has an important function: to quench the spark or arc that may be seen at the master contacts when they break the circuit.

    If this small resistor is missing or disconnected from the circuit at your pilot dial, then you may observe a spark or arc at the contacts. The small resistor quenches the inductive impulse in the "daisy chain" which occurs when the circuit opens at the master clock.
     
  26. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Thank you, this was great help.
    Have taken a printout and given to my clock maker.
    Thanks
     
  27. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    I am pleased that you believe the assistance we have provided is a "great help" and I believe that you understand the principles of the Gent master-slave system.

    Passing our comments along to your clock maker is not our intent or objective. I am uncomfortable replying to a "second party," and I have no assurance that my comments are understood by your clock maker."

    I believe that the Gent system at issue is yours to have, own, maintain and be responsible for its care.

    I would welcome queries directly from your clock maker.
     
  28. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Hi Eckmill, please donot get me wrong.

    My queries are posted here along with my clockmaker's dilemma. I gave a printout mean I translated it for him to be able to understand. He is not conversant with English. To the extent of my ability, I try to make him understand what you or someone posted or suggested.

    I find really nothing amiss in what i did; yet I find your post slightly cold or at best aloof. Irrespective of anything, I value your opinion and would request you to continue to guide me on the issues raised by me (as my clockmaker isnt conversant with the language).

    Hope you find my submission to your satisfaction.
     
  29. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    #30 prideofmatchingham, May 30, 2014
    Last edited: May 30, 2014
    As per the detailed suggestions given above the following are submitted for the critical scrutiny of the fraternity

    1. Resistance of the main electromagnets was found to be 225 Ohms. The one in the plot slave found to be 250 Ohms.
    2. Electromagnets were disconnected and one 1.5 V dry cell used but to no avail.

    3. I then used one Marklin transformer from one of the electrical train giving an output of 18 V. As you can see in the video, even this doesnot energise the magnets enough to release the gravity arm. Pl see the video below

    [video=youtube_share;6Mmv2-ottLc]http://youtu.be/6Mmv2-ottLc[/video]

    4. My clockmaker says, and I am quoting him without understanding, "We are providing 4 Amp and 40 V. The pulse given to the electromagnets is 0.25 Amp."

    Few photos are also given hereunder

    DSC00005 (1024x768).jpg DSC00009 (1024x768).jpg DSC00011 (1024x768).jpg DSC00017 (1024x768).jpg

    Spark has gone after he adjusted it yesterday.

    Am I able to make some sense?

    Awaiting some guidance
    POM
     
  30. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It must have been an error. He may have meant 1/4 amp at 40 volts.
    IR=E
    0.25*225=56.25

    also note IE = P
    0.25*40 = 10Watts. so don't hold the coils
    on for too long or they'll get hot.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  31. praezis

    praezis Registered User

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    I suppose he uses a supply able of 4 Amps.

    Frank
     
  32. prideofmatchingham

    prideofmatchingham Registered User

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    Frank, can you elaborate pl?
    Thanks
     
  33. harold bain

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    #34 harold bain, May 31, 2014
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
    POM, your home fuse box or breaker box might be fused and capable of providing 200 amps. This doesn't mean every time you turn on a light, you have 200 amps running through your wires, just the capability of using that much if you need it.
    If the power supply you are using does not have sufficient power capacity for the job, the voltage will drop as the current draw goes up, to the point where the electromagnets don't get enough voltage to pull in. You can measure this with a voltmeter to see how much the voltage drops when the electromagnets are being energised.
     
  34. Edwardo

    Edwardo Registered User

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    Hi
    I serviced these clocks in England during the 1980’s
    There are a few simple adjustments necessary to repair your clock
    Please personal message me (PM) and I will explain
    Once the clock is working I will summarize the repair for the others to read and post it
    Edd
    clockmanedd@gmail.com


    Edd
     

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