Gebr. Junghans plate 1625

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by whatgoesaround, Apr 25, 2016.

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  1. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    #1 whatgoesaround, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
    I recently received this clock. I believe it to be plate 1625 which seems to go with the shield face and the disk with the two balls as a temperature compensating pendulum. The plate matches, but the rest is a different clock. However, there is only one way for the movement to attach and it does it correctly. The support columns sit closer to the center than my other anniversary clocks. I think it belongs, but I am a novice compared to the others on this site and I would love to know what you think. Then comes the pendulum. I can find it nowhere in the book. It certainly does not look homemade. It is quite reminiscent of the Badische 5 ball pendulum, but there are many differences. The support bars to each ball are not like the Badische and the disk around the bottom ball is quite unique, the knurled knob is thicker than most and the knurled design is also on the balls;the top ball is more acorn-like. Is this some strange marriage or could it all be original? BTW the serial number is 32190. Oh, another interesting feature is how to set the beat: the anchor pin moves on the achor instead of moving the suspension spring.
     

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  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Wow, I didn't realize what that was and passed it by.:(

    I believe the pendulum is correct. The next lower numbered clocks I have data for (32108 and 31679) both have squared off shield dials and that pendulum. Number 32108 has the same hands too.

    The only thing I find odd about this is the dial.

    Nice catch!

    Eric
     
  3. Ingulphus

    Ingulphus Registered User

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    I was the other bidder, but mine was a "who cares?" bid (i.e. if I won it for that amount, so be it), as I already have the Annee model (with the shield dial and governor pendulum) from that same seller. It is indeed a Junghans, and entirely original and correct - there is one other example from John Hubby with the same dial and pendulum here: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?44548-Junghans.

    As for putting the clock in beat: it appears that the original top block (which is wider, and extends down below the saddle a little bit) is missing, as is often the case, and I don't know of any source for a replacement, other than making one up yourself. Anything other than the original can make beat-setting more complicated, as the pins have a tendency to move out of the slots on the saddle, changing the position of the fork on the anchor. Also, these movements have a tendency to flutter; generally the fork needs to be quite high on the anchor pin to overcome that. Once set up, however, they are very good time keepers.
     
  4. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Now I'm really sad I let it go. I thought they all had a shield dial.
     
  5. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Thanks, etmb61 and Ingulphus. I noticed the top block had to have originally been thicker as it leaves much play and probably accounts for the weaker movement of the pendulum. I wonder if putting something in between to hold the block tighter would benefit it? I saw the back plate and felt it was something special, but was unsure, since I was not familiar with this model, if it was a marriage. I am sure the shield was more desirable; I always wanted one, but just how many of these were made, since it is the first I have encountered? I was quite surprised to have had the winning bid and super happy to have it, especially since my clock funds have essentially run dry, now. I have a number in line to work on anyhow and no extra display space, as my wife would gladly point out.
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I'm sure a shim at the top block would be a benefit.

    You got it for 1/5 of the average price for the Junghans clocks I've recorded sold on ebay. Congrats! I've had one on my wish list too.

    Eric
     
  7. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #7 John Hubby, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    WGA, great catch! The last time I saw your clock was on a eBay auction in November 2008, so it's been out there waiting for you for a while.

    Your clock is complete and original, including both the pendulum and the dial.

    At the "end of the trail" for Junghans 400-Day clocks they made some interesting designs including this 3-Ball pendulum. It isn't in the Repair Guide, but from my data first appeared about the beginning of 1913, lowest serial number so far being 31679. Junghans made about 1,300 clocks with this pendulum during that year, possibly into early 1914. They then made about 250 wall clocks with a cylindrical pendulum between serial numbers 33300 and 33550. The wall clocks have Plate 1623 shown in the Repair Guide as "Manufacturer Not Known" however inspection of the movement shows there is no question it was by Junghans. I have notated it to be by Junghans c. 1914.

    The round enamel dial appeared a fair bit earlier, about mid-1910, lowest serial number so far 26814. It was made with Arabic or Roman numbers and the earlier versions were fitted with spade hands. Your clock is the first with the Trident hands, which were used for all later versions. I now have 13 examples documented including your clock, of a total of 75 Junghans in the data base.

    For general info, my research shows Junghans made their 400-Day clocks starting about mid-1908 and were in continuous production into 1914. They did not resume production of these clocks after WWI. A total of only about 12,500 clocks were made in the approximate six years they were in production.
     
  8. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Thanks, to all for making me appreciate this clock all the more and for the history and numbers, Mr. Hubby; I feel fortunate. Is there any tie between Badische and Junghans or did one kind of lift the 3 ball/5 ball pendulum design from the other?
     
  9. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    No connection I am aware of. While there is some similarity in appearance to the "Badische" 3/5 ball, in particulat the early version with the rating disc on top, the functional differences are considerable. The Junhans design is well constructed and more easily and accurately adjusted. There are other 3-Ball pendulums that have some similarity to this one including one of the Vosseler pendulums, and about 55 years earlier one of Aaron Dodd Crane's temperature compensating ball pendulums.

    Regarding the "Badische" pendulum, we don't know for certain who designed it; could have been Badische, could have been Huber; could have been an individual inventor. There are several pendulums described in the DRGM registers that were granted to individuals, unfortunately none of the original drawings or complete descriptions survived so we have to guess (a) what the actual pendulum looked like in the first place, (b) whether the individual was associated with some company or other, (c) whether the design was ever used commercially, and (d) which company used it if it was commercialized. The very brief descriptions that remain for DRGM announcements that were regularly published in the Deutsche Uhrmacher Zeitung unfortunately omit a lot of detail that could help identify a specific pendulum design. The large majority of pendulums that have been successfully identified are those assigned to known companies or individuals.
     
  10. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Junghans tended to redesign things when they got into clocks that they had not previously made. Their cuckoo clocks, for instance, used movements not at all like the movements typically found on cuckoo clocks made by anyone else around this time period (early 1900's).
     
  11. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Thanks for the response to my question, John and Harold. If Mr. Hubby is not aware of it, I doubt if it exists! I concur with your description of the Junghans one being of better quality; I had to attach the spring back inside one of the Badisches before. They just don't seem to move as smoothly as the Junghans.
     
  12. gintarasb64

    gintarasb64 Registered User

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    I got this nice Gebr Junghans 400 day clock, sharing pictures. SN 32951, year of production is 1914 ?

    Regards
    Gintaras

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  13. gintarasb64

    gintarasb64 Registered User

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    Hello,

    How "fast" and"slow" is regulated on this clock? I can not solve it :)

    Regards
    Gintaras
     
  14. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    I admit that it rests pretty much at the extreme setting on mine, but turn the rating knurled nut on the pendulum as on others.
     
  15. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Very nice example, Gintaras! My present data show your clock being made right at the end of 1913, however it could be early 1914. It has the highest serial number so far for this model, and due to this I had to revise the total estimated production upward to 1,300 of the 3-Ball pendulum clocks being made. I still need more data particularly in the 1912-1914 period to be sure the dating is accurate. At the moment it appears all the 3-Ball pendulum clocks were made in 1913 starting in May and ending in December.

    I also should mention I have only three of the shield dial models out of the total of 13 examples documented. All the others (77%) have an enamel dial, thus far only one of these has Arabic numbers and the rest have Roman numbers. All the shield dial models have Arabic numbers.
     
  16. gintarasb64

    gintarasb64 Registered User

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    I found this Gebr Junghans clock at antique store, not for sale. The owner allowed to make few pictures and share them in this forum for the records.

    Gintaras

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  17. Peter W

    Peter W Registered User

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    I’m glad you posted this. Thanks Gintaras. My clock is 24517 without guard nor screw holes for one while this one, 26159, has a guard and a similar shield dial but not silvered like many were. Mine isn’t silvered either but has black Arabic numerals. There seems no logic to the production run some having one finish and a few numbers later, differences.
     

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