G. Legrand with possible Audemars or LeCoultre repeater movement?

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
Hi All,

I just purchased this G. Legrand (A Geneve) pocket watch (52mm) and I was hoping to get some assistance with identifying the movement. It’s unsigned but am I correct in guessing this might be either Audemars or LeCoultre movement?

Thanks,
Jerome

D1EE8426-B84A-4DB4-A38D-6A1993C5C202.jpeg FC9C9CBC-297E-473D-9E8C-8858529F2BB8.jpeg C8DA057A-A425-4ADA-8A4A-09C2AB5C6341.jpeg
 
Last edited:

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
Thank you! For the uneducated, like me, what are the typical visual cues, if any, that really differentiated the unsigned LeCoultre or Audemars movements, or any of the major manufacturers. I find that I’m easily confusing them.

I understand that the layouts tended to look very similar across the many manufacturers, so even for a bit I thought it was the use of the central pin in the central wheel along with use of screwed chaton, but was proven wrong in my last purchase. Now I’m thinking maybe it is the ratchet wheel and the click. I’m probably simplifying it and likely the answer is it “depends” and requires taking the movement apart, happy to be educated on this.

Thanks,
Jerome
 
Last edited:

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,348
761
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
The pin o the center wheel is a Louis Audemars indicator in a simple watch but was used by many makers in repeaters. The dial layout looks like Louis Audemars but the movement is a very standard LeCoultre ebauche and could have been made a large number of finishers.

One thing that makes me doubt that Audemars, Louis or Audemars Piguet, is that it has a palladium balance spring. That is very unusual and not something they were known for doing.

Watches like this were made to order so a feature such as this really does not rule out anyone, if they got an order to make one with a non magnetic spring they got it done.
 

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
The pin o the center wheel is a Louis Audemars indicator in a simple watch but was used by many makers in repeaters. The dial layout looks like Louis Audemars but the movement is a very standard LeCoultre ebauche and could have been made a large number of finishers.

One thing that makes me doubt that Audemars, Louis or Audemars Piguet, is that it has a palladium balance spring. That is very unusual and not something they were known for doing.

Watches like this were made to order so a feature such as this really does not rule out anyone, if they got an order to make one with a non magnetic spring they got it done.
Thank you for the insights. Curious, I recall reading that having a palladium balance spring was some of the earlier ways, VC was first, to prevent magnetism. If it wasn’t the norm what was the usual option? I’m trying to understand how to discern this particular nuance when viewing movements. Is it just the color, high silver vs something like blued or copper? Thanks!
 

eri231

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
1,567
451
83
torino italy
Country
Region
The most likely candidate is Constant Piguet, for two reasons. The first is the intermediate wheel with four screws, characteristic of Constant Piguet. I also found a similar Louis Audemars repeater (he was Piguet's client). The second feature, as pointed out by Dr Jon is the hairspring Since 1888, Constant Piguet and Paul-David Nardin, from Ulysse Nardin du Locle, have collaborated on experimental studies on the use of a platinum-iridium alloy for the balance and hairspring.
Constant Piguet was famous for four-hammer repeaters with Westminster chimes, the Swiss national anthem and God save the King.
they were built on a 42-caliber of LeCoultre ebauches (from the LeCoultre archives).

A Audermars 1890 example audemars 1890.jpg

A Constant Piguet
8135D.jpg

Piguet carillon
Piguet 4 hammers.jpg

regards enrico
 

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
Thanks Enrico, this is great information, very useful!. If you don't mind, do you have any suggestions on any books/reference sites I can start to educate myself on Constant Piguet's work?
 

astonvilla

Registered User
Jun 3, 2001
250
8
18
Country
"Legrand" was most likely a retailer . The AP stamp must be for Audemars Piguet . Ebauche by Louis Elisee Piguet . Many of the complicated Audemars Piguet movements ( if not all) came from Louis Elisee Piguet . Both C Piguet and Paul David Nardin were customers of Louis Elisee Piguet .
H S
 
  • Like
Reactions: jabregana

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
"Legrand" was most likely a retailer . The AP stamp must be for Audemars Piguet . Ebauche by Louis Elisee Piguet . Many of the complicated Audemars Piguet movements ( if not all) came from Louis Elisee Piguet . Both C Piguet and Paul David Nardin were customers of Louis Elisee Piguet .
H S
Yeah, saw that AP mark, but I was unclear if that was definitely Audemar Piguet or not. What I've been able to find about Eugene Legrand is that he may have been a watchmaker. I found his name or a very similar name in this book with a reference to Eugene Legrand as a watchmaker. Another Legrand came up in my searches that was auctioned back in 2011. It was a chronograph with man similarities to the movement of mine


Screen Shot 2021-03-01 at 12.20.59 PM.png Screen Shot 2021-03-01 at 12.20.18 PM.png H1101-L21878984.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Warwian

eri231

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
1,567
451
83
torino italy
Country
Region
""
Constant Piguet, from Le Sentier (Vallée de Joux) and Le Locle, a watchmaker who patented a repeater-watch with four-hammer chime on four gongs (March 20, 1896, No. 11 948, for a “Montre à répétition-carillon à quatre marteaux.” (Four-hammer repeater-carillon watch.). In the 1890’s, the latter collaborated with Paul-David Nardin (1855-1920) of Ulysse Nardin, Le Locle, on experimental studies before selling the company circa 1907 to his workshop manager, Charles-Emile Jeanneret-dit-Grosjean (1861-1953).


Piguet, Constant Constant Piguet is the son of David-Constant Piguet (1820-?), watchmaker at the Sentier (Vallée de Joux), and Zélie-Henriette Reymond (1827-1857); both married in 1851. The couple to at least one other son: Jules-Albert Piguet (1854-1934). David-Constant Piguet founds a watchmaking workshop in the Vallée de Joux which will be taken over by his two sons. The company is particularly renowned for its repeating watches. Circa 1880, Jules-Albert Piguet moved the workshops to Le Locle, in the Neuchâtel mountains. In 1881, the company receives for its products a Second Prize at the National Horological Exhibition of La Chaux-de-Fonds. On March 20, 1896, Constant Piguet, a resident of Le Sentier, obtained a patent, No. 11 948, for his mechanism of " Montre à répétition-carillon à quatre marteaux (Repeater-watch with four-hammer chime). To produce his watches, he uses minute repeater blanks from LeCoultre & Cie (today Jaeger-LeCoultre) of Le Sentier. Inside the factory, these drafts are referenced under the name "19-CMS No 42". According to the Jaeger-LeCoultre Heritage Archives, only a small amount of these drafts are delivered to Constant Piguet. The latter to get his carillon watches on four gongs (classical or Westminster) is brought to modify the timing as shown by his patent. Since 1888, Constant Piguet and Paul-David Nardin, from Ulysse Nardin du Locle, have collaborated on experimental studies on the use of clocks in a platinum-iridium alloy. Circa 1907, Jules-Albert Piguet sold the company to head of workshop Charles-Emile Jeanneret-dit-Grosjean (1861-1953). In 1922, the company was renamed Jeanneret-Grosjean Charles-Emile & Fils, "Fabricants de ressorts de répétition" (Manufacturers of gongs-springs). Watches with carillon-chime by four hammers on four gongs are extremely rare, especially if they are of the Westminster-type. It also exists with the air of God Save the King, which was also at that time that of the Swiss national anthem. Only two other watchmakers - Edouard Jean-Richard (1867-1944) from Le Locle, and Victorin Piguet (1850-1937) from the Vallée de Joux - have specialised in the production of this type of watch. Westminster Chimes The Westminster chimes are more correctly called the Cambridge Chimes. They first appeared in 1793 at St. Mary's Church, Cambridge. They were written by Rev Dr. Joseph Jowett and Dr. John Randall, working with undergraduate William Crotch (later first Principal of the Royal Academy of Music) and were adopted by Lord Grimthorpe, designer of the great "Big Ben" clock for the Palace of Westminster. The chimes are based on four notes from Handel's Messiah and are known locally in Cambridge as "Jowett's Jig". Barbezat-Bôle, Henri (1851-1921) In 1897, the company registered the "hammer" trade mark (three hammers crossed) for watches and watch parts. The company made complicated pieces. It took over Paul Buhré, Le Locle; the corporate name became "Paul Buhré & H. Barbezat-Bôle". Both companies were listed circa 1920-1925. H. Barbazat-Bôle was listed in 1924 for marine chronometers, pocket chronometers, 8-day watches, plus a large ad for pocket watches an.vigational chronometers, 8-day quality watches, Westminster chime repeaters, other repeaters and form watches. In 1923, H. Barbezat-Bôle won the International Chronometer Competition Group Prize, five individual prizes, a Series Prize and First Prize. He made watches for the Indian market with portraits of dignitaries painted by John Graff (1836-1902) of Geneva.""
regards enrico
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,348
761
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
I believe the case is Swiss but not by Audemars Piguet.

The engraving is in French and if the case were French it would have French hallmarks. French gold had to be hallmarked to sell as gold.

Swiss hallmarking was optional. If they did it, they had to follow certain rules but they did not have to do it at all.

I have not seen any Audemars Piguet watches of this era in cases they signed or made.

The date is wrong for the serial number, unless it was significantly back date, i.e. to a much earlier event.
 

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
I believe the case is Swiss but not by Audemars Piguet.

The engraving is in French and if the case were French it would have French hallmarks. French gold had to be hallmarked to sell as gold.

Swiss hallmarking was optional. If they did it, they had to follow certain rules but they did not have to do it at all.

I have not seen any Audemars Piguet watches of this era in cases they signed or made.

The date is wrong for the serial number, unless it was significantly back date, i.e. to a much earlier event.
Could the serial number be specific to the case maker and not necessarily the movement? Specifically I’m wondering if Legrand simply cased the movement with another manufacturer’s case that had its own serial number though I’m not entirely clear if such a practice existed or makes sense.
 

Warwian

Registered User
Nov 2, 2015
77
66
18
Country
Yeah, saw that AP mark, but I was unclear if that was definitely Audemar Piguet or not. What I've been able to find about Eugene Legrand is that he may have been a watchmaker. I found his name or a very similar name in this book with a reference to Eugene Legrand as a watchmaker. Another Legrand came up in my searches that was auctioned back in 2011. It was a chronograph with man similarities to the movement of mine


View attachment 640801 View attachment 640802 View attachment 640803
I saw your watch online before you bought it, and it bears the same signature as a French navy deck watch that I own. I believe that what may look like a G is in fact an E.

E. Legrand, likely Eugene, Horloger de la Marine, was active in both Geneva and Paris. He took over the famous Charles Oudin company from Amadee Charpentier shortly before Amadee died in 1894. This also involved taking over the prestigous location of the business at the Palais Royal in Paris (number 51-52). The company also had a shop at 30 rue de Montpensier, an address that many of their watches are engraved with.
It is possible to find watches that are signed both Legrand and Charles Oudin. I used to own a repeater signed Charles Oudin on the dial and E. Legrand on the inner case lid, and I have seen other examples like it online. In 1899, the company moved from the Palais Royal to Avenue de l'Opéra number 17.

Sadly, not much is known about Eugene Legrand, but he was a member of the Swiss-French committee whose mission it was to finance two busts of Ferdinand Berthoud. In the committee, he represented the watchmakers of eastern Paris. I also believe that he was the treasurer of the Chambre syndicale de l'Horlogerie de Paris for a time, and that he, as a member there, presented an invention in the Revue Chronometrique related to some sort of new system for driving the seconds hand. I cannot quite remember the details, however.

He presented 34 deck watches, Montre Torpilleurs, to the yearly deck watch competitions arranged by the Hydrographic Service of the French Navy between 1891 and 1905. I own one of them, which placed 7th out of 52 in 1892. It also has a Palladium alloy hairspring.
During his time in Geneva, he competed with a chronometer in the 1879 Geneva Observatory competition which won a silver medal.
Legrand 1.jpg Legrand 2.jpg Legrand 3.jpg
 
Last edited:

astonvilla

Registered User
Jun 3, 2001
250
8
18
Country
The case is french and it has got a french hallmark . There is a eagle head hallmark on it , which is french for 18k.
This Legrand does not have 4 hammers/ the constant piguet patent . So why do you think this legrand movement is by Constant Piguet , Eri ? Both Lecoultre ebauches and Louis Elisee Piguet repeater ebauches are similar in apperance. Audemars Piguet was founded in 1875 . Paillard invented his palladium hairspring in 1877 . Leroy , H Capt , Ekegren , Paul David Nardin and Robert favre were among the first to use this spring allready in the 1880 ies . Also Audemars piguet , I believe. The serial number on the case could be Legrands number , and not the maker of the movement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Telelucă Cristian

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
I saw your watch online before you bought it, and it bears the same signature as a French navy deck watch that I own. I believe that what may look like a G is in fact an E.

E. Legrand, likely Eugene, Horloger de la Marine, was active in both Geneva and Paris. He took over the famous Charles Oudin company from Amadee Charpentier shortly before Amadee died in 1894. This also involved taking over the prestigous location of the business at the Palais Royal in Paris (number 51-52). The company also had a shop at 30 rue de Montpensier, an address that many of their watches are engraved with.
It is possible to find watches that are signed both Legrand and Charles Oudin. I used to own a repeater signed Charles Oudin on the dial and E. Legrand on the inner case lid, and I have seen other examples like it online. In 1899, the company moved from the Palais Royal to Avenue de l'Opéra number 17.

Sadly, not much is known about Eugene Legrand, but he was a member of the Swiss-French committee whose mission it was to finance two busts of Ferdinand Berthoud. In the committee, he represented the watchmakers of eastern Paris. I also believe that he was the treasurer of the Chambre syndicale de l'Horlogerie de Paris for a time, and that he, as a member there, presented an invention in the Revue Chronometrique related to some sort of new system for driving the seconds hand. I cannot quite remember the details, however.

He presented 34 deck watches, Montre Torpilleurs, to the yearly deck watch competitions arranged by the Hydrographic Service of the French Navy between 1891 and 1905. I own one of them, which placed 7th out of 52 in 1892. It also has a Palladium alloy hairspring.
During his time in Geneva, he competed with a chronometer in the 1879 Geneva Observatory competition which won a silver medal.
View attachment 640824 View attachment 640825 View attachment 640826
Thanks for sharing this. I found your original Swedish post and found the whole chronometer competition fascinating.
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,348
761
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
I missed the French hallmark. It is the very small eagle. There should be similar small marks, not necessarily the same, on the body, pendant and bow (if original)of the watch. This AP is the mark of a French casemaker.
 

astonvilla

Registered User
Jun 3, 2001
250
8
18
Country
Found this online. 2 Complicated Audemars Piguet watches laying on the work books of AP . The name of "Legrand" is visible beside one of the watches ( Also Leroy) . I think this proves that Legrand was a customer of Audemars Piguet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jabregana

Audemars

NAWCC Member
Aug 6, 2010
1,061
125
63
81
Somerset, UK
www.audemars.co.uk
Country
Region
David-Constant Piguet founds a watchmaking workshop in the Vallée de Joux which will be taken over by his two sons.
à propos of not-a-lot;
Here is a note of David Constant Piguet ("Piguet Dd. Constant") from a list of outworkers who worked on a piece (#11891) detailed in the Louis Audemars "Register of Superior Watches". The entry is dated September 9th 1873.

Paul 2-21 - Copy.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: shinytickythings

eri231

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
1,567
451
83
torino italy
Country
Region
Never doubted that Legrand was an AP client. Only to prove that Legrand only traded AP.
In the case there is the eagle without frame and facing to the right so the case is produced in France, if imported there must also have been the Owl punch and the responsibility mark of a French casemaker
regards enrico
 
  • Like
Reactions: jabregana

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
2,800
1,262
113
France
Country
Region
I have just read that the Eagle hallmark was first used in Paris from 1838, but not used throughout France until 1919.

1614693267482.png

For clarification, is the conclusion, that this is most likely a Constant Piguet movement that was imported to Paris where it was cased, and that AP is most likely the mark of a Parisian case maker?

John
 

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
Thanks everyone for jumping on this and appreciate all the great detective work! I’m looking to find someone to service it so hopefully once it’s taken apart there may be other marks that might conclusively confirm this group’s consensus.
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,153
479
83
Country
The most likely candidate is Constant Piguet, for two reasons. The first is the intermediate wheel with four screws, characteristic of Constant Piguet. I also found a similar Louis Audemars repeater (he was Piguet's client). The second feature, as pointed out by Dr Jon is the hairspring Since 1888, Constant Piguet and Paul-David Nardin, from Ulysse Nardin du Locle, have collaborated on experimental studies on the use of a platinum-iridium alloy for the balance and hairspring.
Constant Piguet was famous for four-hammer repeaters with Westminster chimes, the Swiss national anthem and God save the King.
they were built on a 42-caliber of LeCoultre ebauches (from the LeCoultre archives).

A Audermars 1890 example View attachment 640749

A Constant Piguet
View attachment 640750

Piguet carillon
View attachment 640751

regards enrico
Hi enrico,
What is the third hammer for?
Regards, P/L
 

jabregana

NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2021
30
14
8
Country
Region
Hi All,

I sent this watch to Doug Shuman to perform a complete service and cleaning since it was new to me. He finished his write-up and I'm posting here for those interested:


He did not find any additional marks that would identify the movement maker, but he did note the high level of finishing on all parts of the watch.
 

dshumans

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2009
440
60
28
It's a beautiful, very high quality watch. The watch has an E. Legrande signature mark on the nickle movement under the dial as well as the scratched date 1885 like the engraving on gold case. The movement also has some repeater feature designes I have never seen before. The case number matches the movement serial number. As discussed above, Legrande owned a high quality watch company from Charles Oudin. I think it likely that AP is the French gold case maker's initials. I wonder if Legrande actually made the movement as well.
IMG_7790.JPG
 
  • Like
Reactions: shinytickythings

dshumans

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2009
440
60
28
Here is a picture of the repeater works under the dial. It would be interesting if anyone can identify this as an ebauch from a known maker.
IMG_7789.JPG
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,348
761
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
Not quite in the same league but thanks to this thread I now know who made it.

I bought this at an auction in Paris.

closed_front.jpg Face_crystal.jpg

back.jpg

The motto is for a chapel high in the mountains. I believe the watch was raffled as a fund raiser for this chapel.

The movement is very fine
mvt_full.jpg

It has very fine escapement
escapement_entry.jpg

The signature is under the dial

underdialmarks.jpg

And, now, I know who this maker.

Face_crystal.jpg closed_front.jpg back.jpg mvt_full.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: agemo and jabregana

agemo

Registered User
Apr 5, 2011
311
347
63
70
SAINT-NAZAIRE - FRANCE
Country
Region
Hi,
In the Davoine (repertory of the Swiss watch industry) of 1883 Eugènes Legrand watch manufacturer is located 9, Boulevard James Fazy in Geneva.

Legrand E.jpeg

Amicalement GG
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,348
761
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
On rereading this thread it seems interesting to dd that the Oudin/Legrand watch I posted also has the AP and eagle marks on its case
 

Forum statistics

Threads
164,793
Messages
1,433,863
Members
85,803
Latest member
Chas99
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,863
Last edit
Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff