Fusee wall clock hour hand lagging behind between 7 and 12

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Ency Williams, Sep 20, 2017.

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  1. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

    Aug 16, 2017
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    Hi,

    I have a mid 19th century fusee wall clock which is keeping very good time apart from the hour hand has some play in it which seems to result in it not pointing to the correct time on the left hand side of the dial ( from 6 - 12 ) At 12 O'clock the hour hand is where it should be at 10 to 12.

    It has a screw holding it to the shaft and is NOT friction fit although it does seem to be able to turn on the shaft.

    Can anyone help please?

    Thanks in advance,
    Nigel
     
  2. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Nigel, that screw is supposed to be tight. Gravity is causing the hand to fall back as it leaves the bottom of the dial and moves up toward the top. Then, when it reaches the top, it falls to the right and becomes lined up again. You must tighten the screw so it is set properly and it should stay there.
     
  3. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

    Aug 16, 2017
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    Thanks for your reply but the screw is as tight as it will go - that's what I don't understand.
     
  4. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You might have to pull that hand off and see how the screw looks on the inner end. It might need to be replaced, or the hole tapped.

    Also be sure there is no play in the hand at the bushing area.
     
  5. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

    Aug 16, 2017
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    The play seems to be from inside the clock - is this where the bushing area is?
     
  6. wow

    wow Registered User
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    The only way to find it is to pull the movement and watch it as you move the hand. Wherever that slack is, it must be fixed.
     
  7. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks. I'm a total novice with clocks. I know a bit about them but would not be confident in trying to diagnose the fault. I will have a look at the weekend when I have more time but am not too confident. Have you come across anything similar?
     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    When you move the minute hand from 12 to 1, 2,.......10, 11, and back to 12 does it seem to move unusually easy and or are there any tight or loose places encountered? Now with the minute hand set to "3", try turning it backward (counter clockwise) toward "1" - does it feel like it is very loose of disengaged from the movement? It would REALLY help to see some pictures of this clock movement.


    RC
     
  9. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

    Aug 16, 2017
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    Found you again! I think I picked the wrong time to do my 1st post.
    Thanks RC, I did everything you suggested and the minute hand felt solid at all stages. I've put some pictures up, let me know what you want to see in particular. I've got a new pin to hold the minute hand and that feels like a more secure fit but there is still a bit of play on the hour hand, not much but hard to photograph, perhaps this is normal?. P9260260.JPG P9260264.JPG P9260265.JPG P9260267.JPG P9260268.JPG P9260269.JPG
     
  10. wow

    wow Registered User
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    If the tension spring is tight when you tighten the tapered pin, the minute hand should stay wherever it is set. It will have some slack, but that slack will only be noticeable if you move it by hand........not by gravity. If it still falls forward or backward by gravity, you should try bending the tension spring so the tension will be tighter when you tighten the tapered pin.
    By the way, great photos and nice work on the movement!
     
  11. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks! There's no slack in the minute hand - the minute hand moves fine and keeps good time, it's the HOUR HAND that's the problem.
     
  12. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Oh, that's a horse of a different color. Look where the hour wheel (gear) engages the small pinion just under the bracket or arm supporting the arbor with that pinion. It may be possible that the hour pipe and wheel is slipping above that pinion?

    RC
     
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  13. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    The hour wheel doesn't seem to be slipping there but earlier when I took the pin out of the minute hand when the clock was upright the hour hand disengaged but went back on again when I pushed the pin back in - that can't be right can it?
     
  14. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Well, I misread the original post. I have been thinking the minute hand was the one moving. Like RC said, that's a totally different problem. So, the hour hand has a screw. If it is tight, the play must be in the teeth of the hour wheel or somewhere else in that area. Can you watch it as you wiggle the hour hand and tell where the play is?
     
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  15. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks for your replies. I've got to go out now but I will look again tomorrow and report back.
     
  16. Hayson

    Hayson Registered User

    Mar 2, 2008
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    Ency. If I read you right what you are experiencing is 'lash' which is the name for the play between the teeth on the hour wheel and the minute wheel pinion. The hands should be set up so that at 12.00 the hour hand is lined up behind the minute hand with an equal amount of lash to either side of it. This will mean that it lags slightly behind when climbing from 7 to 12 and is slightly ahead as it falls from 12 to 6. Because of the play or lash between the teeth no greater precision in positioning is possible. Hope this helps.

    20170722_171630.jpg
     
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  17. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I think you've got it, Hayson. I have a similar fusee in my shop, and I checked it and found that there was lash in mine also. The movement looks good in his photo. May just have to live with it.
     
  18. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    In post # 1, Nigel said, "At 12 O'clock the hour hand is where it should be at 10 to 12". If I'm reading this correctly and my fuzzy math isn't too fuzzy the error is about 5 degrees of rotation. Considering there are two wheel to pinion couplings and the clock likely has some age as well, I agree this could just be the lash in the motion works. If it is bothersome I would begin by checking (and bushing if indicated) all the pivot holes of the motion works - that intermediate wheel and bridge, the center hole in the movement plate, and the amount of slop between the hour pipe and whatever is slips over. If you eliminate all the lash the motion works will bind but you may be able to reduce it a bit if it really matters.

    RC
     
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  19. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

    Dec 7, 2011
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    One possibility is you have a loose hour wheel clutch, some fuzee have adjustable hour hands, meaning you can move the hour hand by itself, great for daylight savings.

    Anyway check if the hour wheel pipe is too loose or not.
     
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  20. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks everyone and apologies for the delay in getting back to you, I had a family crisis to sort out and didn't have any internet. The problem seems to be that the wheel at the front of the picture doesn't make very good contact with the other wheel (sorry I don't know their names) and can slip off all together. PA110281.JPG PA110283.JPG
     
  21. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Ency, those wheels are the motion works of the clock. The one you are referring to is held in place with the L shaped bracket. If the bushing in the top of that bracket is sloppy and allows the pivot to wobble, it should be re-bushed. That is not likely because there is almost no pressure exerted on that bushing. You may be able to move the top of that wheel (the pinion section) closer to the adjacent wheel by loosening the screw that secures the bracket to the plate and moving the top of the bracket closer to the wheel where the skipping is occurring. That bracket probably has a pin or two protruding into holes in the plate. You may be able to move the bracket closer simply by loosening the screw, moving the bracket, and tightening the screw. If not, you can remove the pins and set it where you need it and then use Loc-Tite to secure the screw. (This is only a last resort)
     
  22. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks Wow, I don't think it is the proximity of the wheels to each other or the pinion part, it's that the bottom wheel can drop below the other wheel therefore losing contact with it.
     
  23. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Try removing it and placing a thin washer under it to raise it high enough to mesh properly with that wheel.
     
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  24. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks Will, you read my mind, I was just about to ask whether that would work. I'll do as you suggest and let you know if it does the trick. Thanks again.
     
  25. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    A washer may correct the symptom for the time being but one should assume that everything worked OK when it left the factory, so what changed? You will have to take it apart anyway so look carefully at what's going on. Perhaps the gear on the center shaft was removed when the clock was serviced and not put back in the correct position. While it is apart look carefully under magnification for any hairline cracks in any pressed on gear that could have caused it to slip position. Gears that were originally aligned correctly don't just move on their own. Also while its apart check for any broken pivots or sloppy pivot holes that could be causing one gear to "tilt" away from the other. As already mentioned, the screwed on bridges or cocks typically have one or two pins to hold them precisely in position. If not, an incorrect position could also cause a wheel to tilt. Would be nice to know why it now wants a spacing washer. Keep in mind that if the pivot and pivot hole at the other end are OK, adding the washer may align the gears but also force the arbor against the other pivot hole eliminating any end shake causing another problem. That's sometimes the problem when one tries to compensate for one problem it frequently creates a second problem.

    RC
     
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  26. Ency Williams

    Ency Williams Registered User

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    Thanks RC but as it only took 10 minutes it's too late for me to have a close look as the washer seems to have done the trick and the clock is back on the wall. I will see how it goes over the next few days and let you know. Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.
     
  27. dAz57

    dAz57 Registered User

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    #27 dAz57, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
    That's a typical English dial train setup, you have a curved tension spring generally made of brass riding on the centre wheel arbor, then the cannon pinion sits on this, the hour wheel bridge is screwed to the front plate, it's only job is to carry the hour wheel, the cannon pinion must not touch it.

    Then you have the minute wheel riding on its own post, the hour wheel goes on the bridge, now when the minute hand is fitted the hand washer must be thick enough to press the cannon pinion down onto the tension spring, this also makes sure the cannon pinion wheel lines up with the minute wheel otherwise in some cases they can slip pass each other.

    The minute hand and cannon pinion ride between the tension spring and hand washer, it does not touch any part of the front plate and hour wheel bridge.

    dialTrain1.jpg dialTrain2.jpg
     
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