Fusee Up/Down, Help needed in Identification of maker, and anything else.

[Rodney Leon]

I need help with finding out information on this watch. It is a Fusee key wind from back and key set from the front. It is and Up/down, wind indicator, or power reserve. I don't know the difference between the terms as they all seem to mean the same thing. The dial is marked UP and Down. What would be the proper description? Most of all I can not find anything on the Maker, J. Greening, 31 Market. St, Longton. Have searched all over the place. Found out Longton was noted for pottery. Can not find a watch maker from there. I did find a few photos of Market St from that period. The movement is also marked, 31 Market St, Longton, Patented 3005 Safety Wheel, and J. Greening. Movement No. 2637. I Could not find anything on the patented safety wheel, other than another photo of a movement with that stamped on it. Case number matches movement number 2637. Marks inside the case that I found, I.J.T.N. For. Isaac Jebez Theo Newsom, Don't know if that is right or not, and if he made good cases. The other one is a C with a lion and shield, that the book said was Chester 1903. I do not know if that is correct either. Any information will help. I have taken a few Photographs of it so hope they help in identification of it. Thanks Rodney.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Acltually, there is no fusee. The reversing wheel serves the purposes of making the watch wind in the expected direction.

The up/down indicator is unusual on this type of watch. The English Watch Co. made a lot of watches similar to this, but not this one. Someone else shoid be able to identify the maker from the patent.

 

[Rodney Leon]

Acltually, there is no fusee. The reversing wheel serves the purposes of making the watch wind in the expected direction.

Thanks for that my mistake ,you are right there is no fusee..Here is another shot not to good taken through the crystal. I did not want to take the movement out as it was just serviced. It keeps perfect time.

 

[Les harland]

Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World Lists:-
Greening Joseph Longton Staffordshire 1887 - 92
Also jeweller
The Hallmark looks more like 1886 than 1903 to me

 

[John Matthews]

Your watch was made in Coventry. The case maker's mark is for Isaac Jabez Theo Newsome as you identified. He was both a case maker and a watch maker. The case was assayed at the Chester office, the date letter [C] is for 1886/87. The patent 3005 was taken out by A J Morcom on March 3, 1886. This was discussed here.

Unfortunately Jerry's attachment is not accessible (missing photographs) - this is a copy of the missing patent.



The watch was retailed by Greening who will have received the completed watch with the movement already signed with his name from the Coventry maker, who was probably Newsome, The Butts, Coventry.

John

 

[Rodney Leon]

Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World Lists:-
Greening Joseph Longton Staffordshire 1887 - 92
Also jeweller
The Hallmark looks more like 1886 than 1903 to me

The case maker's mark is for Isaac Jabez Theo Newsome as you identified. He was both a case maker and a watch maker. The case was assayed at the Chester office, the date letter [C] is for 1886/87. The patent 3005 was taken out by A J Morcom on March 3, 1886.

Thank you both for the information on the watch. I collect and work on American Railroad watches so these are something unusual for me. The workmanship on it is amazing. I spoke too soon about it keeping perfect time it has now lost 10 minutes in 24 hours. It runs ok during the day in the pocket without any noticeable lost in time. Will check it out.

 

[Bernhard J.]

A combination of freesprung with a plain uncut balance, quite unusual also. A very interesting watch!

 

[pmwas]

A combination of freesprung with a plain uncut balance, quite unusual also. A very interesting watch!

Undersprung... the regulator is under the balance on the top plate

 

[DaveyG]

Your watch was made in Coventry.

I am intrigued to understand John, why it is that you are so positive in your attribution of the watch to Coventry? I can see some evidence of what are commonly perceived to be identifiers of a NW Lancashire movement - crows foot indices and some of the balance cock engraving. - but nothing on the movement that would, to me at the moment anyway, shout Coventry. The only visible link to Coventry is the sponsors mark in the case. Maybe finished in Coventry but born in Prescott or somewhere close? It would be interesting to see the dial plate. What I also find unusual is a freesprung watch, of this date, with a 7 jewel movement (presumably) and a solid balance.

Dave

 

[DaveyG]

What I also find unusual is a freesprung watch, of this date, with a 7 jewel movement (presumably) and a solid balance.

I'm a dummy

 

[John Matthews]

Dave - see advert

The advert attests that Safety Wheel Patent #3005 submitted by Morcom in 1886 was only used on Newcome and Co. I recognised the patent which I had identified from its use on one of the Newsome movements in my collection.

Unfortunately there are two parallel threads regarding this watch - see also here.

The latter includes this photograph of the underside of the pillar plate beneath the dial, posted subsequently to my post, which provided confirmation

John

EDIT - you are correct that Newsome probably obtained the frame from Lancashire, but I would be cautious and not assume the presence of the regulator ornament on a watch as late as 1886 indicated any finishing in Lancashire. I believe by this time a number of Lancashire outworkers had relocated to Coventry.

 

[DaveyG]

I knew John that if I asked the question I would learn something, because you were so positive in the attribution. I think that I probably already knew but just didn't connect between the sponsor's mark and the watchmaking capability. I went straight to the little Coventry Watch Museum Project pamphlet on reading your response, fairly sure that there was an ad in there - and there is. Pencilled note next to the ad was that Newesome Senior had earlier been partnered with Sam Yeomans in Spon Street.

I am aware of the migration of Liverpool tradesmen to the Coventry area and that they, in some cases, continued to use the SW Lancashire identifiers, some say for nefarious reasons - but I can't believe a Scouser would do that